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Topic: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule (Read 3990 times) |
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omar
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Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
« Reply #15 on: Oct 9th, 2010, 1:15pm » |
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on Oct 9th, 2010, 12:41pm, rbarreira wrote:
Fritz said Gnobot2005Blitz and Loc2007Blitz, which I guess would make sense if we want to avoid having two bots from the same developer (eliminating a lot of potential P1/P2 alternatives).
I was going to say Sharp2008P2, but that one would probably also get swept by all the qualifying bots. |
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Thanks. I don't know how I missed that. I've added Gnobot2005Blitz and Sharp2010Blitz to the list.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
« Reply #16 on: Oct 10th, 2010, 8:54am » |
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on Oct 9th, 2010, 11:43am, omar wrote:| This year there is the requirement of contributing at least $10 to the prize fund to sign up. |
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Oh, in that case you had better clarify that the $10 is mandatory, not voluntary. The rules say that all players "should" make a "contribution", two words that both imply that the payment is optional, at least to me. Perhaps you should change the wording to read "are required to" so that nobody is confused like I was.
Having a mandatory entry fee, even just $10, addresses my concerns about the seriousness of the World Championship tournament.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 10th, 2010, 9:03am by Fritzlein » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
« Reply #17 on: Oct 10th, 2010, 8:58am » |
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on Oct 9th, 2010, 12:49pm, omar wrote:| This year I am going to allow contributions to the prize fund until the end of April which is usually when I distribute the prizes. The registration for the postal mixer end on April 1st. |
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OK, I don't think anyone will object if the World Championship prize pool grows a bit during or after the tournament. There is still a slight logistical issue, though. It appears that you are charging an extra $10 for anyone who doesn't register by December 1. Does that make sense for the Postal Mixer? I am imagining someone who doesn't even hear about Arimaa until February, and then is charged $20 to sign up for the Postal Mixer in April due to "late" registration.
I am curious what the turnout for the Postal Mixer will be under the new system. In the past we have either had entry fees that were all returned to the players as prizes (2005-2009) or no entry fee and no prizes (2010). We have never had an entry fee with no prizes, as you are proposing for 2011. I understand why you don't want the hassle of calculating points and distributing the money; we'll see what comes of it.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 10th, 2010, 9:03am by Fritzlein » |
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rbarreira
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Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
« Reply #18 on: Oct 10th, 2010, 10:13am » |
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Am I understanding correctly that the $10 contribution to the prize fund can be added to an event of our choice?
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omar
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Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
« Reply #19 on: Oct 12th, 2010, 9:55am » |
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on Oct 10th, 2010, 8:54am, Fritzlein wrote:
Oh, in that case you had better clarify that the $10 is mandatory, not voluntary. The rules say that all players "should" make a "contribution", two words that both imply that the payment is optional, at least to me. Perhaps you should change the wording to read "are required to" so that nobody is confused like I was.
Having a mandatory entry fee, even just $10, addresses my concerns about the seriousness of the World Championship tournament. |
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I guess I'm using the word 'should' where I really mean "required to". The current wording is:
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Interested players should register before the deadline of 6PM EST Saturday January 1st, 2011.
All players should make a contribution of $10 USD to the prize fund. If this would be a hardship for you, you may request to have it waived.
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I'll change it to:
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Interested players must register before the deadline of 6PM EST Saturday January 1st, 2011.
All players are expected to make a contribution of $10 USD to the prize fund. If this would be a hardship for you, you may request to have it waived.
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Making a contribution to the prize fund is not required if one can't afford to do it. For example some of the players are students and I don't want this to prevent them from participating if they can't make a contribution.
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omar
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Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
« Reply #20 on: Oct 12th, 2010, 10:19am » |
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on Oct 10th, 2010, 8:58am, Fritzlein wrote:
OK, I don't think anyone will object if the World Championship prize pool grows a bit during or after the tournament. There is still a slight logistical issue, though. It appears that you are charging an extra $10 for anyone who doesn't register by December 1. Does that make sense for the Postal Mixer? I am imagining someone who doesn't even hear about Arimaa until February, and then is charged $20 to sign up for the Postal Mixer in April due to "late" registration.
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Yes, there may be some new players who learn about Arimaa after December and want to join the postal mixer. For these players the registration fee would be higher. But maybe it will help to ensure that only really serious new players join and there would be less chance of unfinished games.
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omar
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Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
« Reply #21 on: Oct 12th, 2010, 10:29am » |
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on Oct 10th, 2010, 10:13am, rbarreira wrote:| Am I understanding correctly that the $10 contribution to the prize fund can be added to an event of our choice? |
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Yes, you can contribute to the event of your choice and it can be different than the event you are registering for. For example if you are registering for the spectator contest you can contribute all or part of the amount to the world championship. You can even decide how the prize is distributed within the events.
I'll see how this works out. I'm hoping it will work out OK. It would be weird if the spectator contest 1st place prize turned out to be higher than the world championship 1st place prize; or if second place in an event was higher than 1st place.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 12th, 2010, 10:30am by omar » |
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omar
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Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
« Reply #22 on: Oct 24th, 2010, 10:59am » |
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I updated the 2011 WC page to say:
"The top 8 finishers from this tournament are considered the top human Arimaa players and are expected to defend the Arimaa Challenge if selected to do so."
I am thinking that in future challenge matches I will pick at least 2 defenders from the top 8 finishers and at least one defender from the top 3.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
« Reply #23 on: Oct 24th, 2010, 11:33pm » |
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on Oct 24th, 2010, 10:59am, omar wrote:| The top 8 finishers from this tournament are considered the top human Arimaa players and are expected to defend the Arimaa Challenge if selected to do so. |
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I worry that this rule change will have consequences you don't intend. For example, I will be on vacation for two weeks this summer. My vacation doesn't conflict with the Arimaa Challenge dates (yay!) but if it did, your rule change would compel me to drop out of the World Championship even if those dates didn't conflict. Is that what you want would want? People who are unwilling or unable to defend the Arimaa Challenge should stay out of the World Championship?
A second unintended consequence of mandating defenders rather than recruiting volunteers is the possibility of getting an unmotivated defense. Suppose there is someone who made it to the final of the World Championship who has no desire to defend the Arimaa Challenge. Do you really want your $10,000 protected by someone who is at the table only because you mandated it? Someone who might not really care about losing because he doesn't really want to be there anyway?
I can imagine that you have had trouble recruiting Challenge Defenders in past years, and that this new rule looks like a neat way of solving your difficulty. I agree that it is neat, but I am not sure your situation has improved. On the contrary, I think you may have made it worse.
An alternative way of getting motivated defenders would be to divert some of the World Championship prize fund to the Challenge Defenders. For example, suppose $180 was diverted from World Championship prize fund, and was instead divided up per game win among the Challenge Defenders. Suppose also that the World Championship itself didn't give much if anything in prizes, but did give winners the privilege of defending the Arimaa Challenge, with invitations extended in the order of finish in the World Championship. Then you wouldn't have to rope in unmotivated Challenge Defenders; they would be getting a minimum of $20 per win. At the same time, taking prize money away from the World Championship won't sabotage its participation; most people would sign up merely to play for pride whether or not there was a prize fund, or at least would have done prior to the non-refundable mandatory donation.
Anyway, my general recipe for getting people to do something they aren't volunteering for fast enough is to provide an incentive rather than a mandate. In this case I suspect it will get you closer to the type of Challenge Defender you want.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 24th, 2010, 11:36pm by Fritzlein » |
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clojure
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Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
« Reply #24 on: Oct 25th, 2010, 7:16am » |
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Fritzlein makes important points. Scheduling might be a reason not to attend WC even without the additional games. Of course, you can extend the period of time a lot, and since bots are willing to play at anytime, it won't be a problem if the organizer is willing to have the game when the defender wants.
But the more problematic part is the psychological one. A player that wouldn't otherwise play the match, is serious risk. This is even more so if he is not known personally, and doesn't get proper social pressure to success.
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omar
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Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
« Reply #25 on: Oct 25th, 2010, 11:10pm » |
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Actually I didn't intent for that to be a mandate or for anything to change from the way we've done it before. I mostly just wanted the players to know that they may be asked to defend the challenge if they finish in the top 8. I didn't expect that if someone found it a hardship they would be required to. That's why I said "expected to" instead of "must". But, you're right someone may think it's required and not sign up for the WC if they weren't available to defend the challenge. I'll change it to this:
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The top 8 finishers from this tournament are considered the top human Arimaa players and may be asked to defend the Arimaa Challenge if willing and available to do so.
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I actually contemplated adding a section in the prize fund for challenge defenders this year. But thought that since we've always defended the challenge for the sake of humanity and not money, we should just stick to that tradition.
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megajester
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Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
« Reply #26 on: Oct 26th, 2010, 5:43am » |
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If that's what you want it to mean, might your adjustment have gone too much the other way of "maybe"? What about something like this:
The top 8 finishers from this tournament are considered the top human Arimaa players and are the default/preferred/primary candidates to defend the Arimaa Challenge.
Sorry, it's just that translation (that thing I do all day) is basically rephrasing stuff in another language, so I couldn't resist giving my two cents.
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omar
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Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
« Reply #27 on: Oct 26th, 2010, 8:17am » |
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In the past I've gone through the top players and ask them one at a time if they would be interested to defend the Arimaa Challenge until I find one that is willing. If for any reason the player is not able to, I move on and ask another player. I don't expect that to change and I think the current wording reflects that pretty closely. But I also like the way you've worded it. I will change it to this:
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The top 8 finishers from this tournament are considered the top human Arimaa players and are the primary candidates to defend the Arimaa Challenge. They may be asked to help defend the Arimaa Challenge unless it is a hardship for them to do so.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 26th, 2010, 8:36am by omar » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
« Reply #28 on: Oct 26th, 2010, 6:13pm » |
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It's funny that when you talked about paying entry fees you said "should", which I took to mean, "I would like you to pay but you can still play without paying if you like", whereas when you were talking about defending the Challenge you said, "expected to", which I took to mean, "If you aren't willing to defend the Challenge you won't be allowed to participate in the World Championship." Thank you for clarifying in each case.
on Oct 26th, 2010, 8:17am, omar wrote:| In the past I've gone through the top players and ask them one at a time if they would be interested to defend the Arimaa Challenge until I find one that is willing. If for any reason the player is not able to, I move on and ask another player. I don't expect that to change and I think the current wording reflects that pretty closely. |
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I disagree that your wording reflects what has always been the case. What is (apparently) new is not the order in which you contact players, but the level of obligation you feel those players have to accept. In the past you didn't move down the list if a player was "not able to" defend the Challenge, you moved down the list if he simply didn't want to defend the Challenge for whatever reason. If there is now a greater obligation than there has been until now, (specifically that a player must have a "hardship" to decline defending the Challenge when asked) then you are making a change and shouldn't claim that things are the same as always.
How would you feel about saying that the players will be "invited" to defend the Challenge as opposed to being "asked" to defend the Challenge? An invitation suggests a privilege with no obligation. Or maybe you really do feel that top Arimaa players have some sort of moral/social duty to defend the Challenge, in which case you might want to make the grounds of that obligation explicit, i.e. explain why you feel Arimaa players owe it to the community.
on Oct 25th, 2010, 11:10pm, omar wrote:| I actually contemplated adding a section in the prize fund for challenge defenders this year. But thought that since we've always defended the challenge for the sake of humanity and not money, we should just stick to that tradition. |
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I think the tradition of defending the Challenge for the sake of humanity's honor is more noble that defending it for the sake of money, which is fine by me. I inferred from the new wording in the rules that you felt a need to ramp up the pressure on people to defend given that humanity's honor hasn't been motivating people enough, which is why I suggested money as an alternative motivation. I wasn't suggesting that there was a problem with the old way of doing it, only inferring that you thought there was a problem with the old way of doing it. But I guess that just again raises the question of whether you are changing anything with your new wording.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 26th, 2010, 6:31pm by Fritzlein » |
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omar
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Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
« Reply #29 on: Oct 27th, 2010, 11:32pm » |
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In the past you didn't move down the list if a player was "not able to" defend the Challenge, you moved down the list if he simply didn't want to defend the Challenge for whatever reason.
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True, so I guess you would prefer the earlier wording I had suggested, with perhaps 'asked' changed to 'invited'. Something like this:
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The top 8 finishers from this tournament are considered the top human Arimaa players and may be invited to defend the Arimaa Challenge if willing and available to do so.
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Then to include Megajester's suggestion:
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The top 8 finishers from this tournament are considered the top human Arimaa players and are the primary candidates to defend the Arimaa Challenge. They may be invited to defend the Arimaa Challenge if willing and available to do so.
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Then perhaps change 'available' to 'able' to make it more encompassing. So, how does this sound:
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The top 8 finishers from this tournament are considered the top human Arimaa players and are the primary candidates to defend the Arimaa Challenge. They may be invited to defend the Arimaa Challenge if willing and able to do so.
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