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Topic: TheMob vs TheGang (Read 41433 times) |
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megajester
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Istanbul, Turkey
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #15 on: Jun 9th, 2011, 8:14am » |
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In principle I would also suggest that making it Europa/Ring of Fire v Rockies/Atlantics would be as good a way as any other to split the teams, while taking an opportunity to encourge AWL team cohesion. Two birds with one stone as they say.
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rbarreira
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Arimaa player #1621
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #16 on: Jun 9th, 2011, 8:45am » |
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on Jun 9th, 2011, 1:54am, Fritzlein wrote:
As The One I never looked at the discussion of The Mob. I was supposing that with two Mobs it would be against the rules, although entirely unenforceable, for either team to look at the discussion of the other. Just to make the temptation slightly less, I would suggest each team suspend discussion as soon as it votes, rather than trying to get a jump on the next move's discussion. That way at least cheaters would be seeing one ply less depth. |
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What about some sort of password protected system where only the members of each team get the password?
I think pbwiki may do the trick.
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Nazgand
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #17 on: Jun 9th, 2011, 11:30am » |
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megajester, rbarreira - are you in?
About how the teams are split, that sounds good, though ultimately the teams will be decided by the participants.
As for the collaboration, I'd assumed that TheMob and TheGang would both get there own forum and forumgroup. Ideally we will release the analysis of move n-2 on move n to give the non-participants something to read. pbwiki might be an easier way to do it though; we could simply post the analysis we wish to release in a thread as we go.
I've not done this before, thus I am interested in hearing the ideas of previous participants.
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Fritzlein
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #18 on: Jun 9th, 2011, 11:40am » |
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on Jun 9th, 2011, 8:45am, rbarreira wrote:| What about some sort of password protected system where only the members of each team get the password? |
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To cheat with password-protected forums requires only a sockpuppet account that joins the opposing team. But perhaps having to jump through that one hoop would deter someone who would otherwise peek in a moment of weakness.
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rbarreira
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #19 on: Jun 9th, 2011, 1:19pm » |
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on Jun 9th, 2011, 11:40am, Fritzlein wrote:
To cheat with password-protected forums requires only a sockpuppet account that joins the opposing team. But perhaps having to jump through that one hoop would deter someone who would otherwise peek in a moment of weakness. |
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Not only it is an extra hoop, but it also makes it harder for cheaters to go undetected...
Nazgand, yes I'm in! Though I don't think it's a good idea to release the analysis up to move n-2. That leaves room for getting some valuable information regarding strategies and, even worse, the possibility that the analyzed position gets repeated again.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 9th, 2011, 1:21pm by rbarreira » |
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aaaa
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #20 on: Jun 9th, 2011, 2:16pm » |
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It looks like it should be possible for this YaBB forum to have boards be restricted to specific member groups. I certainly wouldn't like to give up my use of the most-recent-posts function.
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Hippo
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #21 on: Jun 9th, 2011, 2:41pm » |
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I would like participate, but I don't want to be a full time coordinator. I would prefer to have gang account and mob account such that the coordinator could be easily changed any time during the game.
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ChrisB
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #22 on: Jun 9th, 2011, 4:00pm » |
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I'm also interested in participating.
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Nazgand
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #23 on: Jun 9th, 2011, 5:58pm » |
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Sounds good, aaaa. Are you in?
So Hippo, you idea is to have a HeadGangster and HeadMobster account, and when the coordinator decides to let someone take over? That would work, and I can see the advantages in the long run. People reading the records would never be confused about who is the Head. I would note that a devious, cunning Head may vote twice, or try to use their normal account to enter the other team(espionage ahoy!). This would probably be noticed though.
As for the general 'sockpuppet' account problem, I have thought of a solution: add more hoops. We could require that participants win against the [looks at personal game record]12 10 different players. Obviously they could just bot bash or write a script to use a better released bot such as OpFor2009 to effortlessly beat 10 bots, but I suspect this would be a strong deterrent.
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Swynndla
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #24 on: Jun 9th, 2011, 8:34pm » |
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on Jun 9th, 2011, 5:58pm, Nazgand wrote:As for the general 'sockpuppet' account problem, I have thought of a solution: add more hoops. We could require that participants win against the [looks at personal game record]12 10 different players. Obviously they could just bot bash or write a script to use a better released bot such as OpFor2009 to effortlessly beat 10 bots, but I suspect this would be a strong deterrent. |
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Gosh - I feel quite differently about it. I think that if the analysis was left completely open to that public, spectators would be able to read the analysis of both sides "live" (as live as a postal can be). This would make it enjoyable for people (spectator sports always are), and fun is what it's all about. Even non-regular people might watch the game as it progresses. Having an unenforced agreement that it's considered bad manners to look at the the opposition's analysis would add to the already friendly arimaa community spirit. I like things to default to being non-hidden in general, as it adds to the feeling of open & honest. I know it's natural for us "computer geeks" to think of all sorts of ways to put security in place, and then all sorts of ways to break that security (we like doing this), but that is another "game" as far as I'm concerned. And this is a friendly battle isn't it? ... no prize except gloating rights?
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Nazgand
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #25 on: Jun 9th, 2011, 9:43pm » |
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Good point Swynndla. I do tend to think very security-centrically. One of my favorite past-times was acting as "Security Consultant" to an MMORPG, TBA(no longer available). I had a great time using partially coded features such as magic, duping items, getting billions of gold, attacking players(normally they need to punch you before you are able), stealing passwords, increasing my combat stats ATK, STR, DEF by 2^32/3 (overflow error in checker function), defeating the superboss dragon about 20 times in a minute, posting in the hidden admin forum, creating my own forums... And yes I will edit this as I remember more to brag about 
Back to your point, openness would be a nice way to go. Any security we put in place could easily be defeated by a determined foe unless the security didn't allow normal people in.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 9th, 2011, 9:45pm by Nazgand » |
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Sconibulus
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #26 on: Jun 9th, 2011, 11:00pm » |
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I can definitely see myself participating in this game, although I definitely think there should be at least token security. Two moves is probably insufficient, as in the mob postal it seemed that lines extending out three or more turns, while they weren't omnipresent, also weren't terribly uncommon, which is exacerbated by positional repeats.
Now, some of you might say "Oh, we can trust eachother." I think we probably can't. Even assuming no malicious intent, the very fact that they'd exist on this forum without being hidden means they'd show up in searches or recent posts. Personally, I don't think anyone's going to try very hard to look at the opponent's data, but it should definitely require both intent and at least twenty-thirty seconds of effort.
If you want unaffiliated spectators to observe the discussion, maybe if move discussion is made public 5 turns after the move in question is played? That covers us for pretty much everything short of forced endgames or a very deep branch that's had repetitions.
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Fritzlein
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #27 on: Jun 9th, 2011, 11:42pm » |
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Oh, now that you mention it, during the Mob game I did once look at the Mob's discussion accidentally, as the result of a search. It was discussion of the opening, and the game had progressed far beyond, so it had no effect, but it would be nice to prevent at least inadvertent peeking at opposing moves. I wonder whether such password protection as this forum has would automatically filter search results too.
I understand the desire to let spectators in on the fun while it is happening, but isn't it enough to let everyone who cares to sign up for one team or the other? Indeed, now that I think about it, it might be a disincentive for some to participate if only non-participants get an omniscient view. I wouldn't cry if nobody was allowed to see both sides of the discussion. Spectators, just like the players themselves, can choose up sides. Folks that can't be bothered to sign up can check the moves but have to wait for the game to be over to see what is being said.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 9th, 2011, 11:48pm by Fritzlein » |
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Nazgand
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #28 on: Jun 10th, 2011, 12:39am » |
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That is a good point, Fritzlein. We should not leave incentive to not participate. Unfortunately, when Fortunately, if I get the urge to peek, this way I will be incapacitated by the notion of managing multiple accounts.
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RonWeasley
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Re: TheMob vs TheGang
« Reply #29 on: Jun 10th, 2011, 7:31pm » |
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TheMob coordinator is less about being a good player yourself and more about keeping track of the discussion and prompting the mobsters to state their final comments. Mobsters need enough time to respond to each other, especially in active positions. The coordinator then needs to sense when discussion has finished and begin the vote. There needs to be enough time for mobsters to vote, often a day and a half at least.
I worried a lot in the second game about getting enough discussion and getting a vote done on time. I worried about being a pest. I said to myself that I hoped somebody else would be coordinator next game. If you find you're playing around on the arimaa site every day, you just might be a coordinator.
Given that somebody else coordinates, I would contribute to one of the teams, unevenly perhaps, as long as there are no giant spiders on it.
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