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Topic: 2013 World Championship Format (Read 31113 times) |
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Nombril
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Re: 2013 World Championship Format
« Reply #195 on: Nov 29th, 2012, 9:24pm » |
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on Nov 23rd, 2012, 7:55am, Fritzlein wrote:| If so, then the discussion about pairing/scheduling earlier or later will be mostly moot. |
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Hah, that hasn't stopped anyone in the past... I recall numerous hypothetical pairings in the chat room. If Player A wins that game they are favored in tomorrow, then these will be the pairings, but then if Player B wins...
I definitely support a consistent scheduling time.
As for the new topic of automatically starting a game when both players are seated... I'm not as sure there. I recall a number of times where I would sit at a game first, then go get a drink while waiting. If it automatically started while I was gone... !!! Or the converse, I would sit down at the game if I was running a little late, just to send a message saying I would be ready in 5 minutes. Obviously if the game were to start automatically I wouldn't do either of those things. I just want folks to consider if those types of conveniences are worth discarding. Or am I being too cavalier with the 15 minute starting window?
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Janzert
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Re: 2013 World Championship Format
« Reply #196 on: Nov 30th, 2012, 12:43am » |
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on Nov 29th, 2012, 9:24pm, Nombril wrote:
As for the new topic of automatically starting a game when both players are seated... I'm not as sure there. |
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I think you just misunderstood the idea.
Quote:| have the clocks start automatically for tournament games, ...and without the players even sitting down. |
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i.e. the clocks would start at the scheduled start time whether anyone is there or not. So you can still sit at the game and then go get a drink or anything else. Just be sure to do it 5 minutes before the start time, or 15 minutes if you want the same buffer as there is currently. 
Janzert
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Fritzlein
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Arimaa player #706
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Re: 2013 World Championship Format
« Reply #197 on: Nov 30th, 2012, 8:35am » |
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on Nov 25th, 2012, 7:58am, omar wrote:
So we need one more vote to use the standard time controls? |
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Exactly.
Quote:| You mean my vote doesn't count for two |
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Starting in about ten hours, your vote counts as minus one, because you are opposed to any changes once the registration has opened.
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Fritzlein
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Arimaa player #706
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Re: 2013 World Championship Format
« Reply #198 on: Nov 30th, 2012, 8:57am » |
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on Nov 29th, 2012, 9:24pm, Nombril wrote:| I recall numerous hypothetical pairings in the chat room. If Player A wins that game they are favored in tomorrow, then these will be the pairings, but then if Player B wins... |
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Oh, yes, players will always try to anticipate pairings before they are posted. When I say "moot" I mean that if there is a game on Monday, there is no point discussing whether the pairings should be moved up to Sunday instead of being done at the regular Monday time. One must in any case wait until all games of the previous round finish.
Quote:| I definitely support a consistent scheduling time. |
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Great, we'll see how the consistent Monday scheduling time works out.
Quote:| As for the new topic of automatically starting a game when both players are seated... I'm not as sure there. I recall a number of times where I would sit at a game first, then go get a drink while waiting. If it automatically started while I was gone... !!! Or the converse, I would sit down at the game if I was running a little late, just to send a message saying I would be ready in 5 minutes. Obviously if the game were to start automatically I wouldn't do either of those things. I just want folks to consider if those types of conveniences are worth discarding. Or am I being too cavalier with the 15 minute starting window? |
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The latter scenario is actually one that I am worried about. At present players know they have a safety window, so they don't feel a need to respect the opponent's time. "Hi, I know I'm already late, but I'm going to go away for a while anyway. You are ready to start? Never mind. You just sit tight until whenever I feel I am ready to play." That's not very considerate. (I recognize that saying something is more considerate than saying nothing, yet the bare fact of being late still seems like an issue to me.)
Players in the Arimaa community are generally very tolerant, and very forgiving of late opponents, but tardiness is still an imposition. If the clocks started automatically at the scheduled time, no sooner and no later, rather than being controlled by the players, there would be no question of courtesy. Players would show up promptly because they would be automatically penalized if they didn't.
Incidentally, I just watched Word Wars last night. Starting the clocks of absent players is standard in Scrabble tournaments. For Scrabble, however, the time control is 25 minutes for the whole game and you never lose on time, you just get penalized points, so the effect of a running clock is less. In spite of the automatic clock start, some players followed in the movie did show up late, but the tardy player won anyway. 
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| « Last Edit: Nov 30th, 2012, 11:09am by Fritzlein » |
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mistre
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Re: 2013 World Championship Format
« Reply #199 on: Nov 30th, 2012, 12:09pm » |
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That's like Poker players showing up late for a tournament and sacrificing early antes. Phil Helmuth is notorious for this.
Has there been an announcement on when the tournament is supposed to start? Really looking forward to it this year.
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| « Last Edit: Nov 30th, 2012, 12:10pm by mistre » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2013 World Championship Format
« Reply #200 on: Nov 30th, 2012, 2:30pm » |
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on Nov 30th, 2012, 12:09pm, mistre wrote:| That's like Poker players showing up late for a tournament and sacrificing early antes. Phil Helmuth is notorious for this. |
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Yeah. Sacrificing antes is another small but painful penalty. If only we could have an equivalently incremental penalty in Arimaa, other than losing the game after five minutes.
Quote:| Has there been an announcement on when the tournament is supposed to start? Really looking forward to it this year. |
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So far the information is just here http://arimaa.com/arimaa/mwiki/index.php/2013_World_Championship_Rules . Registration opens a few hours from now and games start January 7. I will add it to the gameroom announcements when I have verified registration is working properly, and Omar will mass-mail an announcement in the next week or so.
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Nombril
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Re: 2013 World Championship Format
« Reply #201 on: Nov 30th, 2012, 3:03pm » |
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Now I dislike even more the clock starting at the exact prescribed time. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you aren't allowed to even sit at the game until that exact time, so you can't make sure the browser loads the game, etc. So gold would have their first move set up time as the only time period for getting seated at the game. (It doesn't happen often anymore, but I still do see players need to restart their browser or take other measures before being able to get seated.)
I have not considered a game starting at 10 min after the scheduled time as starting late or being inconsiderate. There is a 15 minute window for a 1-3 hour game to start. It seems + 0-15 minutes on the start time seems like a small consideration relative to the variation in the game time. We don't have a packed day of events, with the next game for those players waiting in the wings.
Is it rude for a player to fight to the end, and delay a goal by 10 moves in a hopeless position? That is a longer delay then 15 minutes.
BUT, though it might sound contrary to the above, I do understand and support the idea of an automatic start. And if there is consensus (or the TD decides!) that 15 min is too large a window, then perhaps we should have the clock start 5 minutes after the scheduled time (if it wasn't already started). Another option is to allow players to be seated before the start time. (I'm not sure what is more technically difficult to adjust.)
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2013 World Championship Format
« Reply #202 on: Nov 30th, 2012, 8:38pm » |
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on Nov 30th, 2012, 3:03pm, Nombril wrote:| Now I dislike even more the clock starting at the exact prescribed time. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you aren't allowed to even sit at the game until that exact time, so you can't make sure the browser loads the game, etc. |
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At the moment you can't sit down until 2 or 3 minutes before the game starts. Clearly that time would have to be lengthened to make the automatic starting of clocks reasonable.
Quote:| I have not considered a game starting at 10 min after the scheduled time as starting late or being inconsiderate. There is a 15 minute window for a 1-3 hour game to start. |
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Well, this is how the rule becomes reality. If we say the game starts at 3:00, and you will forfeit if you are fifteen minutes late, then it is interpreted to mean the game really starts at 3:15, and if you arrive before 3:15 you aren't really late. It is the presence or absence of a penalty that determines what "on time" means, thus you are "on time" until the penalties start.
Maybe we could do the automatic clocks rule and say the game starts at 3:00 but the clocks start at 3:15, no sooner, no later? I'm not going to get hung up on what you call it as long as the clocks start at a time that is fixed rather than starting at a time that either player can arbitrarily (without the consent of the other player) push back.
Quote:| Is it rude for a player to fight to the end, and delay a goal by 10 moves in a hopeless position? That is a longer delay then 15 minutes. |
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Fighting to the death is not a delay of the game; that is the game.
Quote:| BUT, though it might sound contrary to the above, I do understand and support the idea of an automatic start. And if there is consensus (or the TD decides!) that 15 min is too large a window, then perhaps we should have the clock start 5 minutes after the scheduled time (if it wasn't already started). Another option is to allow players to be seated before the start time. (I'm not sure what is more technically difficult to adjust.) |
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In that case, we may be on the same page after all.
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| « Last Edit: Nov 30th, 2012, 8:40pm by Fritzlein » |
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browni3141
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Re: 2013 World Championship Format
« Reply #203 on: Nov 30th, 2012, 10:42pm » |
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I must disagree with Nombril. Being late at all to any form of formal scheduled meeting such as a championship game of Arimaa is rude. I think that the clocks should start counting down the second the scheduled time is reached out of courtesy to the spectators and attending players. I do agree however that the game window should be allowed to be opened before the clocks start.
My opinion might be different if this were a casual game between two players, but this is the World Championship, and I personally might be slightly offended if my opponent arrived late to our game. Players who take this seriously will make a strong effort to be present when the game is supposed to start.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2013 World Championship Format
« Reply #204 on: Dec 1st, 2012, 10:18am » |
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I am going to open two new threads, one for discussing the actual 2013 World Championship (as opposed to its rules) and one for discussing the 2014 rules (since the rules for this year are fixed barring an extreme situation. Thanks to all who participated in this thread to make the format for the 2013 Arimaa World Championship as awesome as possible!
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aaaa
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Re: 2013 World Championship Format
« Reply #205 on: Dec 1st, 2012, 3:47pm » |
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It's possible for the final standings to have a player who reached the finals be ranked behind one who didn't. To solve this incongruity, I propose that all those with final ranks no lower than the lowest-ranked finalist end up in the money.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2013 World Championship Format
« Reply #206 on: Dec 6th, 2012, 5:21pm » |
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on Dec 1st, 2012, 3:47pm, aaaa wrote:| It's possible for the final standings to have a player who reached the finals be ranked behind one who didn't. To solve this incongruity, I propose that all those with final ranks no lower than the lowest-ranked finalist end up in the money. |
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Interesting; my intuition would be exactly the opposite. If you give a group of players provisional ratings that reflect their true strengths, and you put the top third in Group A and the bottom two-thirds in Group B, and you tell Group A to play a few games while Group B doesn't play, then by random chance some bottom players in Group A will have ratings that fall below the top ratings in Group B. Thus even if we were dead right in the division, additional information could make it appear that we were wrong.
I would prefer to have only the people who make the finals get prizes, even if they immediately lose out of the finals. I understand that this elevates the structure of the tournament to a higher status than the performance ratings, but that seems right and fitting to me.
To put it another way, paying prizes to people who didn't make the finals seems like a larger incongruity than the one you mention. Given a choice of incongruities, I would rather live with some prizewinners having a lower performance rating than non-prizewinners instead of living with taking some prize money out of the pool of finalists to give to non-finalists.
But that is just a feeling, not a logical proof. Therefore I am very curious what other people feel about giving prize money to non-finalist with a higher performance rating than the lowest finalist. How does popular opinion shake out on this issue?
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Nombril
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Re: 2013 World Championship Format
« Reply #207 on: Dec 6th, 2012, 8:57pm » |
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I think that structure of the tournament is more important than performance ratings (even in tournament performance ratings).
Once you have made the finals, you have met a specific threshold at that point in time. Future play should not change that accomplishment.
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aaaa
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Re: 2013 World Championship Format
« Reply #208 on: Dec 7th, 2012, 1:14pm » |
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Certainly it must come across as weird if only finalists were eligible for a prize but the final ranking for the purpose of distributing the fund is in part determined by the consolation games in the Swiss section? I could then ask whether non-finalists would bump down any finalist to a lower rank for the purpose of calculating the prize distribution.
I'd be inclined to have things be more clean then and have games between eliminated players affect the performance ratings only for the purpose of the scheduling inside the Swiss section itself.
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| « Last Edit: Dec 7th, 2012, 1:28pm by aaaa » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2013 World Championship Format
« Reply #209 on: Dec 8th, 2012, 7:50am » |
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on Dec 7th, 2012, 1:14pm, aaaa wrote:| I'd be inclined to have things be more clean then and have games between eliminated players affect the performance ratings only for the purpose of the scheduling inside the Swiss section itself. |
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I don't feel strongly about having games inside the Swiss section affecting the performance ratings of players in the FTE section or not. My recommendation is to do whatever is easiest, which I would guess is to have all the performance ratings be affected by all the games. If, however, that feels too illogical, and you would rather do what feels most consistent to you, then you have my full support to ignore Swiss-section games while pairing the FTE. There is certainly justification for either way of doing it.
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