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   Author  Topic: 2014 World Championship Format  (Read 7537 times)
Janzert
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Re: 2014 World Championship Format
« Reply #30 on: Feb 13th, 2013, 11:31am »
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on Feb 13th, 2013, 9:58am, mistre wrote:
I'd like to propose a change for next year:
 
"If a game ends due to a disconnection the tournament performance ratings of the two players are not effected."

 
It creates a perverse incentive to timeout whenever you are losing a game.
 
Janzert
« Last Edit: Feb 13th, 2013, 11:31am by Janzert » IP Logged
Hippo
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Re: 2014 World Championship Format
« Reply #31 on: Feb 13th, 2013, 3:15pm »
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on Feb 13th, 2013, 7:52am, Fritzlein wrote:
It would be great if the pairing software could allow for players to drop out and rejoin later, as in the case of UMDRevan who lost Internet connection for days due to snowstorm.  In technical terms, this would mean allowing for zero-point byes instead of only one-point byes.

 
So these 0 point byes would count as losing for the elimination purposes ... so UMDRevan would get 2 loses by the storm ... in double elimination it would be fatal anyways, in triple elimination it is closed to it...
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mistre
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Re: 2014 World Championship Format
« Reply #32 on: Feb 13th, 2013, 9:41pm »
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on Feb 13th, 2013, 11:31am, Janzert wrote:

 
It creates a perverse incentive to timeout whenever you are losing a game.
 
Janzert

 
Is there a way to know whether it is a true disconnect or not?  If not, just use the same scoring method that is used when you can determine if you can unrate a game or not.  
 
If a player is truly losing and times out, then nothing changes.  But if the arimaa score determines that you are winning at the timeout then performance ratings are not affected.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2014 World Championship Format
« Reply #33 on: Feb 13th, 2013, 9:49pm »
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on Feb 13th, 2013, 3:15pm, Hippo wrote:
So these 0 point byes would count as losing for the elimination purposes ... so UMDRevan would get 2 loses by the storm ... in double elimination it would be fatal anyways, in triple elimination it is closed to it...

For an elimination tournament it hardly matters, but we have six rounds guaranteed before elimination.  Someone could miss the first two rounds and still be guaranteed four games, for example Zkid who forfeited in Round 1.  I would like such a person to be allowed to rejoin for the sake of participation.
« Last Edit: Feb 13th, 2013, 9:50pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

Fritzlein
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Re: 2014 World Championship Format
« Reply #34 on: Feb 13th, 2013, 9:56pm »
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on Feb 13th, 2013, 9:41pm, mistre wrote:
Is there a way to know whether it is a true disconnect or not?

There is no way to know.  If I wanted to fake a disconnect, I could rip my Ethernet cable out of the back of my computer, and it would look just like a "true disconnect".  
 
Quote:
If not, just use the same scoring method that is used when you can determine if you can unrate a game or not.  
 
If a player is truly losing and times out, then nothing changes.  But if the arimaa score determines that you are winning at the timeout then performance ratings are not affected.

But you would still support each player being paired within his score group?  In particular, you didn't mind browni being a one-loss player, just that he was the bottom one-loss player?  If that's the issue, then using seeded tournament performance ratings addresses the problem better than making a hack to the unseeded tournament performance ratings.
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mistre
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Re: 2014 World Championship Format
« Reply #35 on: Feb 14th, 2013, 2:35pm »
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on Feb 13th, 2013, 9:56pm, Fritzlein wrote:

But you would still support each player being paired within his score group?  In particular, you didn't mind browni being a one-loss player, just that he was the bottom one-loss player?  If that's the issue, then using seeded tournament performance ratings addresses the problem better than making a hack to the unseeded tournament performance ratings.

 
Well, since there is no way to know a true disconnect, then the result of a timeout must stand or else you would have players timing out left and right on purpose.  My proposed solution was an attempt to mitigate the effect on the seedings if a top ranked player times out vs a lower ranked player.
 
If using seeded performance ratings is a better solution, then I am all for it.
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Re: 2014 World Championship Format
« Reply #36 on: Mar 8th, 2013, 10:21am »
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I am posting this here so that it wont sink in the chat archive. Maybe future commentators will find it interesting:
 
2013-03-08 10:52:59 Boo i wonder did anybody consider using smth like http://www.twitch.tv/directory for commentating?
2013-03-08 10:54:36 chessandgo I didn't know twitch
2013-03-08 10:57:57 Boo this might end up catching some random viewer, that is just browsing the games
2013-03-08 10:59:22 Boo like me who just joined to listen to commentaries of some random game "Tera"
<...>
2013-03-08 12:56:57 Mahrgell btw, since it was suggested to use twitch for arimaa-broadcasts...
2013-03-08 12:58:08 Mahrgell in that case i could also try to advertise it slightly on teamliquid.net (originally a starcraft/dota site), since that community is very open for such things, they also had a lot of simlar events, where other games advertised their broadcasts and gained quite some players from it
2013-03-08 12:58:29 Mahrgell so i think, in general, using twitch would be a great addition
2013-03-08 12:58:47 Mahrgell (and it isn't that hard to use)
2013-03-08 13:06:00 Mahrgell and they are pretty much the targetgroup anyway... hardcore dedicated game, that always try to improve themselves in whatever they do and love to philosoph about how to get better and better
2013-03-08 13:10:05 chessandgo yeah it's an interesting idea, you should mention it in the forum somewhere for everyone (especially Omar) to see
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Re: 2014 World Championship Format
« Reply #37 on: Mar 10th, 2013, 9:37pm »
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I'm starting to agree that the effect an early bye has on the subsequent course of a tournament is problematic. The fact that the special case of having one life doesn't correspond to how seeding normally works in single-elimination tournaments (which is to have the highest-seeded surplus of players start a round later) should have been compelling.
  • As stated already, there is currently a possible incentive for players to aim for a lower seed.
  • The algorithm "wastes" an encounter or two between two high-level players by letting these take place in earlier, less eminent rounds, devaluing them in quality here by a faster time control.
  • Most importantly, the outcome of such a game will have a relatively large and pretty much misleading influence on the relative assessment of the players by the pairing algorithm, which at that stage would have little other internal evidence to go by.

Although I'm loath to add to an already quite byzantine system, I'm therefore proposing to add a sole dummy player with a seed rating equal to the downwards arithmetic progression of the two lowest-seeded players. Every bye given in the FTE section would, for the purpose of calculating the performance ratings, be counted as a win of the respective player over this dummy. These virtual games would also count for the purpose of scheduling inside the Swiss section, giving the dummy player four different performance ratings in total, just like the others. Byes in the Swiss section, however, would not get this treatment. As the tournament progresses, the performance ratings of the dummy player would steadily decrease by the byes, thus dissipating the rating boosts from getting them in a natural fashion.
 
I hope this would be enough to keep the maxim that externalities should never overrule information completely internal to the tournament. If not for this principle, a whole can of worms with respect to rating systems, the parameters they use, manipulation, etc. would be opened outside the "sandbox of indifference" to which it's currently confined.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2014 World Championship Format
« Reply #38 on: Apr 14th, 2013, 11:03am »
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The Round 13 timeout makes me think we should add the possibility of restarting a game from the point at which the arimaa.com server first meets the criteria for server issues.  Or is this opening a can of worms?  Should it remain, for simplicity, all or nothing, i.e. start over or restore from the end?
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Re: 2014 World Championship Format
« Reply #39 on: Apr 15th, 2013, 4:17pm »
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on Apr 14th, 2013, 3:22pm, omar wrote:
For situations where the game is to be resumed, it might be more fair if the player on move submits a sealed move (by email or PM) to the TD soon after it is decided that the game will be resumed. The TD can set when the sealed move must be submitted. When the game is resumed the player must play the sealed move. That way the player on move cannot benefit from a long thinking time and others discussing the position.

Historically, when one player seals a move, the other player gets no additional time on his clock.  That seems fair to me.  However, that is in cases where the game was not interrupted, so all thinking about the sealed move has been done "on the clock".
 
In the case of a game which is interrupted by server problems, sealing a move fifteen minutes later (or hours later as would have been the case this year) does not make things fair.  The timed-out player still has gotten extra thinking time that must be compensated.  Should the erstwhile winner get extra reserve thinking time on a sliding scale based on the length of interruption before the move is sealed?
 
Don't forget that both players get to analyze during any downtime.  Yes, the analysis will generally be of more benefit to the player who is on move, but that player doesn't get all of the benefit.  Indeed, it is even possible that the player not on move benefits more, for example if he is ahead on material and will win if only he can survive desperate attack, unsound but sharp, by the player who timed out.  In this case an adjournment may convert a probable win by the player not on move into an almost certain win, because both players get more time to think and avoid blundering.
 
I don't like the idea of adding extra complexity.  There needs to be a clearer gain in fairness in order to add a layer of procedure.  For 2013, I have decided that there will be no sealed moves.  Therefore, this is a matter of discussion for the 2014 rules.
« Last Edit: Apr 15th, 2013, 4:24pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

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Re: 2014 World Championship Format
« Reply #40 on: Apr 23rd, 2013, 9:47am »
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Currently it's not possible to select which move to resume the game from, but it could be added. However, I think it might complicate things since we will have arbitrary limits like load exceeding 10 as the point at which to reverse the game to before resuming. But then what if we find that during some game the load got to 12 for a few moves but the server managed to bring the load down again and the game finished normally. Can the losing player file a complain? I think I would prefer to keep it to resuming from the time out position.
 
In the past when we resumed a game from the timed out position it was soon after the time out occured. I think this is the first time we rescheduled a game. This is really a tough situation to decide how to handle fairly. I can understand your preference for not wanting to add additional steps to the process. Requiring the player on move to submit a sealed move and giving some additional time to the other player as compensation might not be that much more effort though.
 
I'm surprised that others have not yet given their views on these points. Please chip in.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2014 World Championship Format
« Reply #41 on: Apr 23rd, 2013, 3:13pm »
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on Apr 23rd, 2013, 9:47am, omar wrote:
I'm surprised that others have not yet given their views on these points. Please chip in.

The discussion so far has been driven by problems in the 2013 World Championship, but now that the tournament is one game from finished, the discussion probably won't restart until the TD for 2014 is chosen, he drafts some rules, and then asks for comments on his draft.  Then people who don't like the proposal will perhaps be more motivated to respond than they are motivated to respond in the abstract.
 
But first I should ask, will 2014 be essentially the same large-participation format of 2013 or more like the elite tournament of 2012?  I unequivocally will not be TD in 2014 in either case.  I expect that which kind of tournament we have depends on who is motivated to run it according to their own vision.  I can report that the job does not have to be overwhelming thanks to broad community support.  I was able to be a full-time student at the same time as the TD; my classes didn't have to suffer in order for the tournament to keep on running.
 
We set a record for number of participants and number of games played and surely also number of games commentated.  We have a model that seems to scale well.  On the other hand, the peak viewership for the final games has been lower this year in part because, unlike Omar who committed to be at every single game in 2012 and give commentary if no-one else did, I have only given commentary as my schedule permitted in 2013.
 
Omar, what is your vision for the 2014 Arimaa World Championship?
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mattj256
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Re: 2014 World Championship Format
« Reply #42 on: Apr 24th, 2013, 2:03am »
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I apologize if this is a stupid question, but if I miss the live commentary is it archived somewhere?  
I'm only seeing two videos here.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2014 World Championship Format
« Reply #43 on: Apr 24th, 2013, 1:06pm »
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on Apr 24th, 2013, 2:03am, mattj256 wrote:
I apologize if this is a stupid question, but if I miss the live commentary is it archived somewhere?  
I'm only seeing two videos here.

Recorded commentary will hopefully someday be available indexed by format, recording quality, event, date, players, and commentators.  In the mean time, you can find stuff here: http://arimaa.com/arimaa/ftp/filemanager/filemanager.php
« Last Edit: Apr 24th, 2013, 1:06pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

mattj256
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Re: 2014 World Championship Format
« Reply #44 on: Apr 24th, 2013, 11:57pm »
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Thanks Fritzlein!
 
on Apr 23rd, 2013, 3:13pm, Fritzlein wrote:
Omar, what is your vision for the 2014 Arimaa World Championship?
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