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Topic: Ongoing Opening Event? (Read 7134 times) |
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odin73
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Re: Ongoing Opening Event?
« Reply #30 on: Apr 30th, 2013, 9:38am » |
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What about an easier winning rule to start a contest with a less serious intention?
It could be:
1. The player capturing the first piece is winning until move 20. Else there is no winner for that game.
2. The player capturing the first non-rabbit piece is winning the game until move 20. Else there is no winner for that game.
In my opinion this could be a good excercise for beginners not to blunder pieces in the opening phase (This frequently happens). To avoid a completely passive game, the two rules could be changed to:
1b. The player capturing the first piece is winning until move 20. Else both players lose the game.
2b. The player capturing the first non-rabbit piece is winning the game until move 20. Else both players lose the game.
I think an opening event should not cover the problem to find a perfect opening strategy. It should rather deal with short time tactics.
Opinions?
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Hippo
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Re: Ongoing Opening Event?
« Reply #31 on: May 1st, 2013, 1:59am » |
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Yes, I like this idea.
We can start with my recent game around 13 .
The format crystalised in my hand ...
playng best 2 of 3 with time controls 1m;45s;30s.
Half of the last game has to be replayed both times. Of course with colors switched. 2:0 means no third game.
We could use harwestnow's script to easily replay the game. I expect all 3 games to be played unrated.
What is interesting ... the leading player has to finish the game as fast as possible ... to be able to deviate earlier. While losing player wants to dalay as long as possible to have advantage in the following game.
There is incentive to play interesting positions from both sides.
But may be, I am wrong ... when one player is leading he could make weak moves to make position playable from both sides and than waits with the winning move to finish the game at proper place for deviation ... so at the end it could make too many incentives to play the first and especially second game strange.
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| « Last Edit: May 1st, 2013, 3:06am by Hippo » |
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mattj256
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Re: Ongoing Opening Event?
« Reply #32 on: May 1st, 2013, 9:47am » |
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on Apr 30th, 2013, 4:16am, Boo wrote:| I think in terms of learning it would be better to select an opening position of high rated players when all the pieces are still on board, preferably with no hostages, frames established yet, in the interval of 7g-15s. And have all the players play the same position with both silver and gold. (5th time let the lower rated player choose the color) |
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I like this idea because it's reasonably simple to implement and doesn't involve any complicated scoring criteria. I think the games should be rated. If one player wins a majority of the first four games then the other player should get to choose color for the fifth game; if they're tied I agree with Boo that the lower-rated player should get to choose color. Or it could be played as "best two out of three" or "best three out of five."
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crazyharry
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Re: Ongoing Opening Event?
« Reply #33 on: May 5th, 2013, 10:01am » |
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on May 1st, 2013, 9:47am, mattj256 wrote:
I like this idea because it's reasonably simple to implement and doesn't involve any complicated scoring criteria. I think the games should be rated. If one player wins a majority of the first four games then the other player should get to choose color for the fifth game; if they're tied I agree with Boo that the lower-rated player should get to choose color. Or it could be played as "best two out of three" or "best three out of five." |
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I think that format could be a little more beginner-friendly than what I had in mind, but I would rather work on moves 1-7 than 7-15. The hardest part of the game for me is coming up with a plan of attack at the opening, when the board is still completely open, no pieces have been captured, and neither player has an advantage. Once things start moving, it gets a little easier to make plans, but I really don't like just blindly advancing until a tipping point is reached. Ideally I would have what is essentially a playbook of opening sets and ploys so I can start my games with a plan that has at least a reasonable chance of success.
I also want to work with different setup positions. I'm curious to see if it's better to start with one's pieces in position to be deployed rapidly at the expense of possibly tipping one's hand to the opponent or to start with a non-descript set like 99of9 for slower deployment but a greater possibility of having the element of surprise.
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mattj256
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Re: Ongoing Opening Event?
« Reply #34 on: May 5th, 2013, 6:05pm » |
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on May 5th, 2013, 10:01am, crazyharry wrote:| I also want to work with different setup positions. I'm curious to see if it's better to start with one's pieces in position to be deployed rapidly at the expense of possibly tipping one's hand to the opponent or to start with a non-descript set like 99of9 for slower deployment but a greater possibility of having the element of surprise. |
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I feel like too much of a beginner to say much, except that the strategy/mindset would have to be different between Gold and Silver. Personally I think the important distinction is "committed" versus "flexible." And Fritzlein uses the terms "home" and "away" all the time. Also there's the question of how willing you are to pull enemy rabbits or allow your own rabbits to be pulled. I would sincerely hope that there's no one "objective" best setup! Personally I'm experimenting with the 99of9 setup but the camel behind the elephant. On the first move I move my elephant and camel two steps forward each. I've never seen anyone else do it but it certainly fits my playing style!
If you want to concentrate on moves 1-7 and you want to not have artificial scoring, to me that means that you want a serious discussion after the game is over. Other than the fact that nobody else does it, is there a reason you can't just post in the "game analysis" section of the Forum? Do you need an actual tournament, or would it be enough to have an infrastructure where once a week a game of yours gets critiqued by a stronger player? (Still not trying to be a pest...)
Matthew
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crazyharry
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Re: Ongoing Opening Event?
« Reply #35 on: May 6th, 2013, 12:38am » |
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on May 5th, 2013, 6:05pm, mattj256 wrote:If you want to concentrate on moves 1-7 and you want to not have artificial scoring, to me that means that you want a serious discussion after the game is over. Other than the fact that nobody else does it, is there a reason you can't just post in the "game analysis" section of the Forum? Do you need an actual tournament, or would it be enough to have an infrastructure where once a week a game of yours gets critiqued by a stronger player? (Still not trying to be a pest...)
Matthew |
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Maybe. In-depth discussion has always been one of my goals with this event, but my other goal was data collection. Playing against different people playing different sets provides a useful set of data when it comes to troubleshooting or selecting an opening. Or I think it would, anyway.
on May 5th, 2013, 6:05pm, mattj256 wrote:
I feel like too much of a beginner to say much, except that the strategy/mindset would have to be different between Gold and Silver. Personally I think the important distinction is "committed" versus "flexible." And Fritzlein uses the terms "home" and "away" all the time. Also there's the question of how willing you are to pull enemy rabbits or allow your own rabbits to be pulled. I would sincerely hope that there's no one "objective" best setup! Personally I'm experimenting with the 99of9 setup but the camel behind the elephant. On the first move I move my elephant and camel two steps forward each. I've never seen anyone else do it but it certainly fits my playing style! |
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I'm not worried about players having the same opening strategy/mindset, one player will prevail and then we can have probably endless discussion about why things turned out the way they did.
EDIT: Would you be up for a game sometime? I'm curious to see how that opening of yours plays out. I feel like it could be vulnerable to an aggressive strategy.
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| « Last Edit: May 6th, 2013, 12:46am by crazyharry » |
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mattj256
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Re: Ongoing Opening Event?
« Reply #36 on: May 6th, 2013, 2:26am » |
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on May 6th, 2013, 12:38am, crazyharry wrote:| EDIT: Would you be up for a game sometime? I'm curious to see how that opening of yours plays out. I feel like it could be vulnerable to an aggressive strategy. |
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Yeah we should play some time. I'm usually on 2am-6am UTC. You'll probably wipe the floor with me. I'm not aggressive with my camel to begin with, so setting up with the camel on the back row feels comfortable. I'm only rated 1500 so I'm sure I have a lot to learn...
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crazyharry
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Re: Ongoing Opening Event?
« Reply #37 on: May 6th, 2013, 10:33am » |
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on May 6th, 2013, 2:26am, mattj256 wrote:
Yeah we should play some time. I'm usually on 2am-6am UTC. You'll probably wipe the floor with me. I'm not aggressive with my camel to begin with, so setting up with the camel on the back row feels comfortable. I'm only rated 1500 so I'm sure I have a lot to learn... |
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Oh, wait, that's right. Camel in the back row... Somehow I envisioned this dangerously aggressive E+M strategy where the camel moves into the center on the first move. Well, that is always a possibility, but I am at kind of a crossroads in the development of my opening right now, so nothing is assured. I'll have to look at my schedule and get back to you with a time. Lately I've been eating dinner over at my grandparents-in-law's and 2am UTC is dinner/gin and tonic time over there; not really conducive to skillful arimaa play. Probably someday later this week I'll be able to figure out a sober evening to challenge you.
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crazyharry
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Re: Ongoing Opening Event?
« Reply #38 on: May 14th, 2013, 11:25am » |
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Alright, I'd like to get this thing going.
New proposal:
Players play a six game series. The first two games the players take turns using a 99of9 setup while the other uses whatever set they want. The second two games the players take turns using an EHH setup while the other uses whatever set they want. The final two games the players both use whatever set they want and take turns playing as gold and silver.
Would anybody be willing to play a couple rounds with me as sort of a beta test?
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supersamu
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Re: Ongoing Opening Event?
« Reply #39 on: May 15th, 2013, 7:45am » |
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I would be willing to play with you.
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crazyharry
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Re: Ongoing Opening Event?
« Reply #40 on: May 15th, 2013, 10:25am » |
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on May 15th, 2013, 7:45am, supersamu wrote:| I would be willing to play with you. |
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Sweet! I'm usually able to be available for such things between 0:00 and 5:00 UTC on weekdays, and on weekends I can usually shift things around so I can be available just about whenever you are. What's your availability?
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supersamu
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Re: Ongoing Opening Event?
« Reply #41 on: May 17th, 2013, 5:58am » |
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Shortly after scheduling my first game with crazyharry on Friday 1800 UTC, an Idea came to my mind for a better format:
6 games will be played between the players A and B:
1st game: A(99of9) vs B(Setup_B)
2nd game: B(99of9) vs A(Setup_B)
3rd game: B(99of9) vs A(Setup_A)
4th game: A(99of9) vs B(Setup_A)
and then 2 "normal" games with alternating colors.
(The player first named is gold, the second silver. Setup_B is the setup B chooses for himself after A sets up the pieces in the first game, Setup_A is the setup A chooses for himself after B sets up the pieces in the third game.)
This would have the advantage that the players see how it is to play against their preferred setup.
There is the disadvantage that EHH Setups will not be specifically trained, but I don´t think that this is so important, because not many players choose an EHH Setup as gold.
What do you think?
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crazyharry
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Re: Ongoing Opening Event?
« Reply #42 on: May 17th, 2013, 12:09pm » |
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on May 17th, 2013, 5:58am, supersamu wrote:Shortly after scheduling my first game with crazyharry on Friday 1800 UTC, an Idea came to my mind for a better format:
6 games will be played between the players A and B:
1st game: A(99of9) vs B(Setup_B)
2nd game: B(99of9) vs A(Setup_B)
3rd game: B(99of9) vs A(Setup_A)
4th game: A(99of9) vs B(Setup_A)
and then 2 "normal" games with alternating colors.
(The player first named is gold, the second silver. Setup_B is the setup B chooses for himself after A sets up the pieces in the first game, Setup_A is the setup A chooses for himself after B sets up the pieces in the third game.)
This would have the advantage that the players see how it is to play against their preferred setup.
There is the disadvantage that EHH Setups will not be specifically trained, but I don´t think that this is so important, because not many players choose an EHH Setup as gold.
What do you think?
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I like it. It hadn't occurred to me to include something like that, but some of the best strategic information I've collected came from games against myself.
I'm not sure I fully understand what you're saying about EHH, but having an EHH round has always been a bit of a stretch to me, because I don't really know how to play EHH. Mostly I just wanted an EHH round included to be able to test unbalanced setups. If enough people decide to try unbalanced setups, the final two games might suffice to provide that data.
Would it be a good idea to allow a player to modify their setup slightly from the first pair of games to the last? It might be something people could exploit to take advantage of weaknesses they've noticed in their opponent's set, but from a tinkering perspective, especially with a relatively untested setup, it might be nice to be able to tweak things a little bit to correct catastrophic weaknesses (or less than catastrophic weaknesses, for that matter).
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| « Last Edit: May 17th, 2013, 12:10pm by crazyharry » |
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mattj256
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Re: Ongoing Opening Event?
« Reply #43 on: May 19th, 2013, 11:14pm » |
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on May 17th, 2013, 5:58am, supersamu wrote:1st game: A(99of9) vs B(Setup_B)
2nd game: B(99of9) vs A(Setup_B)
3rd game: B(99of9) vs A(Setup_A)
4th game: A(99of9) vs B(Setup_A) |
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I like this a lot! Having a pair of games where the two players play identical setups but with colors reversed is a great idea!
on May 17th, 2013, 5:58am, supersamu wrote:| and then 2 "normal" games with alternating colors. |
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Two suggestions:
- In the 5th game both players are free to choose whatever setup they want, but in the 6th game they must play exactly the same setup but with colors reversed. (To be fair, the choice of gold/silver should be randomized in game 5.)
- I like that games 5 and 6 are freestyle, but if you want to include EHH you could use my previous suggestion and mandate that Gold and/or Silver must play EHH in both games.
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crazyharry
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Re: Ongoing Opening Event?
« Reply #44 on: May 21st, 2013, 8:34pm » |
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supersamu and I played the first four games of the series he suggested. I'm pretty happy with it as it is. I don't know if we'll schedule and play the last two games or not. He doesn't think the last two games are necessary, but he should probably be the one to explain his reasoning. I am undecided on the matter. I think that considering the difficulties involved in scheduling games with an opponent on the other side of the globe, a shorter series is better, but I feel the last two games could present some interesting opportunities.
I've been thinking about the format today, and I think a compromise could be reached by making the 5th and 6th games in the series optional.
I've also been thinking about the format in general, and I was wondering what people would think about making the whole thing informal and operated more on a request basis than an organized event basis.
What I'm thinking is we could have the supersamu series be kind of a standard series of games for people to work with for general training, but ultimately people could play with whatever format they want.
Someone could just make a post here saying, "Hey, I'd like to play a standard series with someone." And somebody else could accept their challenge and off they'd go. Browni remarked in chat the other day that he'd like to play more games against EHH, so in his case, he could just propose a series like the one supersamu suggested, but with EHH substituted for 99of9. Hypothetically, someone could even just suggest a single game, although I'd prefer that there be at least two games because reciprocity is always nice.
Do you think people would actually use such a system? Or would things stall without someone driving things?
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