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Topic: 2014 World Championship Rules (Read 13228 times) |
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Janzert
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Re: 2014 World Championship Rules
« Reply #30 on: Oct 14th, 2013, 12:49am » |
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on Oct 13th, 2013, 6:18am, chessandgo wrote:| The rules on cheating used to very brief and as non-specific as possible in order to avoid unenforceability, which was even mentioned verbatim. This mention to enforceability has disappeared, everything became a lot more specific, and about 40% of the space is even dedicated to underlining the procedure for a player to file a complaint. |
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I'm confused by this, I believe the new code is in every way less specific and more general than the old cheating section at least as far as what it applies to. Certainly I suppose the procedures to be used have been spelled out much more specifically. But that was meant to improve the enforceability, at the very least by hopefully clarifying the process and thereby improving the perceived fairness.
Quote:| Any particular reason for this all? |
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I've experienced too many situations, particularly in online gaming contexts, where there has been completely unacceptable behavior exhibited toward others because of their race, religion, gender, etc.. We have been quite fortunate in the Arimaa community to have so far avoided major problems and I'm also sure Omar would take appropriate action if there ever were a problem. But I also want it to be explicit what the community standards are and what action to take if there is a problem.
Once there is a general code of conduct it seems logical to include cheating under it.
Quote:| Was this new version written by someone else (Omar, or Fritz maybe?) if you don't like some of it Janzert? |
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I hope I didn't give the impression that I was being forced, pressured, or even suggested into this. This was solely my idea to do this, so any blame should be thrown directly my way. As mentioned though, the general form and many specifics used come mostly from the USCF Code of Ethics; while also referencing and drawing from the PyCon Code of Conduct, the Guild Wars 2 Rules of Conduct, and probably various other sources that I'm currently forgetting. So any good parts are certainly the result of blatantly stealing^wborrowing from them.
My primary dislike is having all the responsibility for a decision falling on me. I'd rather stick to the USCF method of using an established ethics committee to handle all complaints. But at this stage given the community size, tournament length and need for very quickly resolving any issue I don't have the confidence that will work quite yet.
One other part that still needs to be expanded are the specific examples. They should help clarify that it doesn't just apply to tournament altering actions.
In talking to Omar, he did agree to be the final point of appeal. He also reminded me that Tournament Organizer and Licensor need to also approve any sanction that extends outside of the bounds of the current tournament.
Eventually I think there should be a general Arimaa Code of Conduct that any tournament simply falls under. But using one within a tournament for a time or two and refining it a bit first is probably a good first step.
Janzert
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rbarreira
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Re: 2014 World Championship Rules
« Reply #31 on: Oct 14th, 2013, 5:09am » |
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I have some minor feedback regarding this:
Quote:| by reading or listening to live chatroom or audio commentary |
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There is no such thing as live chatroom or audio commentary of WC games, as the commentators are always seeing a delayed game.
So I'd suggest removing this part of the rule, or removing the word "live". Preferably the latter IMHO.
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chessandgo
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Re: 2014 World Championship Rules
« Reply #32 on: Oct 14th, 2013, 8:07am » |
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on Oct 14th, 2013, 12:49am, Janzert wrote:
I'm confused by this, I believe the new code is in every way less specific and more general than the old cheating section at least as far as what it applies to. |
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"tampering with the server" and "Harassment, intimidation or any other display of disrespect or unsportsmanlike conduct toward others in the community." are new, it seems. I'm favourable to the new, more detailed rules, but I understand Fritz and Omar have always been big on keeping the amount of forbidden stuff to a bare minimum. So I'm wondering about the policy change.
For example, the new paragraph on multiaccounting had been expanded with "Participating under a secondary account with the aim to conceal the relation to your primary account." I understand (bad-faithed rant alert) that multiaccounting 99% didn't happen in 2012, in which case I'd like to add that MAing 98.5% never happened in the history of the championships. Is it necessary to expand the rules on MAing to a very mild infraction (concealing the relation to your primary account won't hurt other people that much), when the main infraction is not expected to happen? (end rant).
on Oct 14th, 2013, 12:49am, Janzert wrote:
This was solely my idea to do this, so any blame should be thrown directly my way. |
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Oh I hope I didn't give the impression to blame anyone with anything, keep up the good work Janzert!
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| « Last Edit: Oct 14th, 2013, 8:07am by chessandgo » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2014 World Championship Rules
« Reply #33 on: Oct 14th, 2013, 8:51am » |
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on Oct 14th, 2013, 8:07am, chessandgo wrote:| [...] but I understand Fritz and Omar have always been big on keeping the amount of forbidden stuff to a bare minimum. So I'm wondering about the policy change. |
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My recollection is that Omar and I have had quite different attitudes towards the code of conduct: he has always wanted to forbid anything he thought was unfair, whereas I have been reluctant to write unenforceable rules. It seems Janzert has his own ideas different from both Omar and myself, but it wasn't a unified front in the past either.  I don't know what to expect from Janzert's proposed changes, but I figure we should give it a chance and see how it works.
If we can foresee problems with the new code of conduct, by all means let's fix them before they happen, but I can't quite tell what problems you are expecting. My recollection from the one proven case of cheating (722caasi playing moves taken from live commentary) was that you were strongly opposed to delaying commentary to prevent cheating. I recall that you were not particularly disturbed by the possibility that cheating might happen again if we didn't make changes, i.e. you wanted live commentary to continue no matter who might use it to get advice about an ongoing game.
Is that your main concern today, i.e. are you less concerned about cheating than you are about over-zealous sanctions for minor offenses? Is it that you expect cheating to happen and you can tolerate the cheating itself better than you can tolerate misguided responses of the community? Or am I misinterpreting the thrust of your posts due to my memory of one past discussion?
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2014 World Championship Rules
« Reply #34 on: Oct 14th, 2013, 8:53am » |
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on Oct 14th, 2013, 5:09am, rbarreira wrote:| So I'd suggest removing this part of the rule, or removing the word "live". Preferably the latter IMHO. |
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Yes, let's get specific. Suppose a player does not log out of the chat room during a World Championship game. Suppose the other community members in the chat room talk about the game, including commenting on the delayed moves as soon as they see the moves. Is this an infraction by the player? If so, what is the proposed sanction?
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chessandgo
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Re: 2014 World Championship Rules
« Reply #35 on: Oct 14th, 2013, 9:00am » |
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Oh ok, thanks for the correction Fritz. And no, I am not expecting any particular problem, and I usually have a high tolerence level. I am just fooling around
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chessandgo
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Re: 2014 World Championship Rules
« Reply #37 on: Oct 14th, 2013, 9:31am » |
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on Oct 14th, 2013, 8:53am, Fritzlein wrote:
Yes, let's get specific. Suppose a player does not log out of the chat room during a World Championship game. Suppose the other community members in the chat room talk about the game, including commenting on the delayed moves as soon as they see the moves. Is this an infraction by the player? If so, what is the proposed sanction? |
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Indeed. Hence my asking what the new "philosophy" behind the rules are. If we keep the former "don't forbid what we can't prevent" we can just skip mention of the chatroom / live feed altogether (that's why the delay is in place after all). If we want to be more specific and extensive in what we forbid, we'll need to be very careful.
Wait, the old rules actually did forbid " including live chatroom and audio commentary." http://arimaa.com/arimaa/mwiki/index.php?title=2014_World_Championship_R ules&oldid=3755#Cheating
I must misremember then. I'm confused. What would have been the sanction as of last year to the situation you describe then Fritz?
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| « Last Edit: Oct 14th, 2013, 9:32am by chessandgo » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2014 World Championship Rules
« Reply #38 on: Oct 14th, 2013, 9:43am » |
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on Oct 14th, 2013, 9:31am, chessandgo wrote:| What would have been the sanction as of last year to the situation you describe then Fritz? |
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I ruled as rbarreira suggested, namely that the commentary isn't "live", so there is no infraction. I get the feeling, however, that Omar would have been of a different mindset, i.e. that even listening to the delayed commentary is cheating, and therefore subject to sanction. This definitely needs to be clarified.
Quote:| If we keep the former "don't forbid what we can't prevent" |
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There is a middle ground here, because the TD can prevent a great deal of cheating by sending a live representative to be present during games. If someone (like Ivanov) is suspected of cheating, perhaps we can't forfeit or ban them immediately just on suspicion, but we certainly can increase surveillance to prevent future cheating. So there is a case to be made for keeping "unenforceable" rules on the books, namely that in extreme cases, we can increase enforcement.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 14th, 2013, 9:51am by Fritzlein » |
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Hippo
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Re: 2014 World Championship Rules
« Reply #39 on: Oct 14th, 2013, 9:49am » |
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To cheating by listening delayed broadcast/chat ... I don't think it would help except in stalemated positions with both (weak) playes without a plan.
In all cases I would like radio disabled in play window for players of WC games till the game ends (and may be automatically opened when the game ends).
I would not like argumentation about missclicked radio button during the game.
I have not read the wording considering radio yet ...
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Janzert
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Re: 2014 World Championship Rules
« Reply #40 on: Oct 14th, 2013, 10:54am » |
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on Oct 14th, 2013, 5:09am, rbarreira wrote:There is no such thing as live chatroom or audio commentary of WC games, as the commentators are always seeing a delayed game.
So I'd suggest removing this part of the rule, or removing the word "live". Preferably the latter IMHO. |
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First to clarify, I do not consider commentary on a delayed game to be "live". If it is still "live" then either the delay should be increased or dropped altogether, since that seems to be the only reason for it.
This part is basically just copied from last year. I thought about dropping it given the normal situation that the game is delayed for spectators. But should a game be run without the delay, say through a misconfigured game restart, it seemed relevant to still include. Having said that, even if the whole list of examples were removed it would not change what is covered by these rules. The examples should just clarify and make explicit some of the things that are covered.
Janzert
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rbarreira
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Re: 2014 World Championship Rules
« Reply #41 on: Oct 14th, 2013, 12:23pm » |
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on Oct 14th, 2013, 8:53am, Fritzlein wrote:
Yes, let's get specific. Suppose a player does not log out of the chat room during a World Championship game. Suppose the other community members in the chat room talk about the game, including commenting on the delayed moves as soon as they see the moves. Is this an infraction by the player? If so, what is the proposed sanction? |
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From past experience, when someone forgets to close the chatroom people tend to avoid commenting on the game. This tells me people feel some advantage could be gained from their comments even though the game is delayed. There are two obvious examples of where even delayed commentary can help:
- general strategy (saying something like "in the medium-long term, that rabbit could be advanced and create dangerous situations")
- situations where the board position repeats itself (this one is more rare but still possible).
This leads me to conclude that either:
a) we're OK with people gaining that advantage (so remove that text from the rules); or
b) we're not OK with it, in which case:
b1) increase the delay and remove the text; or
b2) keep the delay as it is (or increase it) and remove the word "live" from that part of the rules
If it's decided the rule should stay, the sanction could be anything from replaying/forfeiting that game to disqualification (I would go for forfeiting the game).
PS: If, on the other hand, we want to completely remove unenforceable rules, that also suggests we remove that rule, since it's practically impossible to guarantee someone isn't using another device to receive the commentary.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 14th, 2013, 12:30pm by rbarreira » |
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Janzert
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Re: 2014 World Championship Rules
« Reply #42 on: Oct 14th, 2013, 12:51pm » |
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on Oct 14th, 2013, 8:07am, chessandgo wrote:
"tampering with the server" and "Harassment, intimidation or any other display of disrespect or unsportsmanlike conduct toward others in the community." are new, it seems. I'm favourable to the new, more detailed rules, but I understand Fritz and Omar have always been big on keeping the amount of forbidden stuff to a bare minimum. So I'm wondering about the policy change. |
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"tampering with the server" came from an example out of the USCF rules where the phrase is "tampering with the clocks". I don't believe we could prove every case, or even most cases, of server tampering. It does seem to very clearly fall outside the bounds of fair play and good sportsmanship though.
The last example "Harassment, intimidation... etc." was just my initial poor attempt to show that it applied outside of a specific game context and includes e.g. chatroom, forum and other means of communication. It really is much too vague and should be broken up into a few more specific examples.
Quote:| For example, the new paragraph on multiaccounting had been expanded with "Participating under a secondary account with the aim to conceal the relation to your primary account." I understand (bad-faithed rant alert) that multiaccounting 99% didn't happen in 2012, in which case I'd like to add that MAing 98.5% never happened in the history of the championships. Is it necessary to expand the rules on MAing to a very mild infraction (concealing the relation to your primary account won't hurt other people that much), when the main infraction is not expected to happen? (end rant). |
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You're right concealing the relation doesn't really matter. There are two separate issues with multiple accounts. First, entering the tournament multiple times is pretty clearly always wrong. Second, using a separate account to hide or otherwise misconstrue some information. In this case the only part I think we're really concerned about is the rating. There are also legitimate reasons to change accounts or even switch back and forth (e.g. bieber4ever seemed really cool 3 years ago, to omar vs. omarFast). So a blanket ban on having multiple accounts is wrong as well. I've changed the example by splitting it in two to separately address the two concerns and modified the secondary account one to be specific about concealing the rating.
Janzert
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2014 World Championship Rules
« Reply #43 on: Oct 14th, 2013, 1:23pm » |
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on Oct 14th, 2013, 12:23pm, rbarreira wrote:| From past experience, when someone forgets to close the chatroom people tend to avoid commenting on the game. This tells me people feel some advantage could be gained from their comments even though the game is delayed. |
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Another explanation is that people thought that the player who inadvertently stayed in the chat room could be forfeited if there were chat comments, so they didn't comment so as not to jeopardize the status of someone who wasn't trying to cheat.
I feel that at least a small advantage can indeed be gained from delayed commentary, so listening to it is indeed unfair, but if we make no attempt to enforce the rule, it shouldn't be against the rules. I don't see this as an absolute, i.e. there is a detriment from possible cheating but also a value to semi-live commentary, and we have found some balance. Rbarriera, I am not OK with people gaining this advantage. I don't want anyone to get outside assistance from any source during the game, but I see harm rather than benefit in an unenforced rule. I know Omar (and others) feel differently, and want cheating to be 100% against the rules regardless of enforcement.
I'm not going to argue for my position, in part because I don't care that much, and in part because I'm not TD this year and I think the TD should run the tournament in a way that he is comfortable with. Whatever the rules/procedures are, we want the TD to be 100% behind it so that he follows through.
I repeat that we can indeed enforce the "no assistance" rule by means of sending live representatives. We may want to talk more about that possibility if we are at all serious about it.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 14th, 2013, 1:32pm by Fritzlein » |
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rbarreira
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Re: 2014 World Championship Rules
« Reply #44 on: Oct 14th, 2013, 5:20pm » |
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on Oct 14th, 2013, 1:23pm, Fritzlein wrote:
I'm not TD this year and I think the TD should run the tournament in a way that he is comfortable with. Whatever the rules/procedures are, we want the TD to be 100% behind it so that he follows through. |
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I completely agree, which is why I was talking about several possibilities. Apparently (and in hindsight, obviously) I did not exhaust all the scenarios, so I don't mean to box Janzert's or anyone's opinion in them.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 14th, 2013, 5:21pm by rbarreira » |
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