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(Message started by: 5HT on Jan 26th, 2014, 11:54am)
Title: helpgoal contest
Post by 5HT on Jan 26th, 2014, 11:54am
hello -- I proposed a contest in chat on 26 JAN to see who can find the longest "helpgoal."  I don't know how many are interested in this besides myself and browni, but I'm going to post the rules here anyway.

Definitions -- submissions must include a constructed, legal (at least one rabbit per side, etc....) position, with gold to move.  [EDIT: In this position, it must be possible for gold to win by goal, thanks c&g.]  Gold and silver then both cooperate to find the fasted goal (not *win*) for gold in X half-turns (since gold can technically goal on silver's move).  The submission with the largest X wins.  

on X -- if gold moves first, then silver pushes a gold rabbit to goal on the next turn, then X is 2.  this might not be the norm, but it will make comparisons easier.  [EDIT: X must be finite, thanks kzb]

thanks to silvermitt for posing this intriguing question!
Title: Re: helpgoal contest
Post by kzb52 on Jan 26th, 2014, 1:05pm
Is there any limit on the number of submissions a player may make?  In any event I think that for this position X = 5 (goal on 4g) although I am far from sure.  Fun contest though!

1g Cf7 Ch2 De6 Rg3 Rh3 He4 Hf4 Eg4 Rh5 Df6 Mg2

1s cf2 ch7 de3 rg6 rh6 he5 hf5 eg5 rh4 df3 mg7
Title: Re: helpgoal contest
Post by 5HT on Jan 26th, 2014, 1:08pm
one submission per person.  and try not to discuss any potential positions.  oh and, if you're worried about anyone seeing your idea, just post your submission near the end of the deadline.
Title: Re: helpgoal contest
Post by kzb52 on Jan 26th, 2014, 1:58pm
Ok, I probably shouldn't have posted so hastily!  I still can't improve upon the above so consider that my official submission.  If I do better I'll share after the contest ends.  Also, wouldn't a position like

1g Ra4 Rb4 Rc4 Rd4 Re4 Rf4 Rg4 Rh4
1s ra5 rb5 rc5 rd5 re5 rf5 rg5 rh5



Have X=infinity?  This is certainly a 'legal' position   ;)

Finally, I didn't realize that silver wins don't count.  I think that's a little strange, and it's more interesting to come up with positions where neither player can win for the longest time, but that's just me.

[EDIT:  modified position so that gold pieces are placed on 1g, and silver pieces on 1s, and not the reverse]
Title: Re: helpgoal contest
Post by 5HT on Jan 26th, 2014, 4:20pm
thanks supersamu, for offering to be the arbiter!  

also, please don't post your solutions here, or in chat!
Title: Re: helpgoal contest
Post by 5HT on Jan 27th, 2014, 9:13am
So the competition is off, but for those interested the best solution so far has an X=51:

1w Cf8 Eh8 Hg7 Ch6 Da4 Db3 Ma2 Rc2 Hb1 Rd1 Rh1

1b ra8 hg8 cf7 mh7 rh5 ha3 rb2 rd2 re2 rf2 rg2 rh2 ea1 dc1 de1 cf1

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/planGame.cgi

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/notconv/old/boardimg.php?orient=n&size=300&imgtype=png&ranks=r4ChE/5cHm/7C/7r/D/hD/MrRrrrrr/eHdRdc1R

if anyone comes up with better, or finds a smaller X for this one, post it here
Title: Re: helpgoal contest
Post by chessandgo on Jan 27th, 2014, 11:32am
Fro; harvestsnow:
http://pastebin.com/AhBmrJsd

Wow. Wheeeew. Nice position :)
Title: Re: helpgoal contest
Post by Hippo on Jan 28th, 2014, 9:40am
The win by cat around f6 trap trick was close.

The sum of path lengths (to c3 trap) was increased just by 3 (increasing X by 6), but cat is active unraveler while rabbit only unfreezes the unraveler so cat neednot do the last steps one per two turns and it could act 2 squares from the trap to pull the rabbit to the trap (subtracting 4 from X). The win is caused by the forced rabbit sacrifice with gold passivity with the goaling. Gold could only put dog on c4 during the 2 his turns while silver pushes the rabbit to d4. Gold goals on 51.

The alternative not sacrifying the rabbit is to wait one more full turn (subtracting only 2 from X), but goaling with c2 rabbit accelerated by the cat again on 51.

Not using the cat around f6 trap trick:
Uses a3 piece as unraveler. In this case both players are able to cooperate and the horse reaches d7 quickly while Dog opens d2 and dog pushes d1 rabbit to d2. Where it is unfrozen by the c2 piece. The rabbit runs to d6 alone from which the horse flips it to goal on 50.

Lack of gold nonrabbits forces rabbit use on c2 or d1 not to unfreeze the c1 piece. With rabbit on c2 players coordinate to goal on X=49.
Rabbit on b1 does not allow combination of nonrabbit pieces such that both north east and south west cannot break unassisted.

So the last hope is Rh6 with cat on both c2 and d1, but even in this case silver horse pushes the rabbit to goal on X=50. (Another problem is the Rabbit would not freeze the silver one..., but symmetry allows re8, ch3 instead... no h3 is closer than a8 )

If the arimaa would be with mouse instead of one rabbit, the mouse on d1 (and b2) would win the contest. For rabbit unfreezers.

And what about this:
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/notconv/old/boardimg.php?orient=n&size=300&imgtype=png&ranks=r4DhE/6Hm/7C/7r/D/h/MrCrrrrr/eHdRR1cc

It seems there is no piece to push the d1 rabbit north so the goal would be slower. Seems X=51 as well.
Title: Re: helpgoal contest
Post by 5HT on Jan 28th, 2014, 4:35pm
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/notconv/old/boardimg.php?orient=n&size=300&imgtype=png&ranks=/r6r/7C/5cHm/D4DhE/hR4Cr/MdRrrrrR/RHdRR1ce

or

1w Ch6 Hg5 Da4 Df4 Eh4 Rb3 Cg3 Ma2 Rc2 Rh2 Ra1 Hb1 Rd1 Re1

1b ra7 rh7 cf5 mh5 hg4 ha3 rh3 db2 rd2 re2 rf2 rg2 dc1 cg1 eh1

with proposed X=61
Title: Re: helpgoal contest
Post by 5HT on Jan 28th, 2014, 8:51pm
also from harvestsnow:

1w Ca2 Mb1 Cb3 Rc2 Rd1 Re1 Df4 Hg3 Hg5 Rh2 Eh4 Dh6

1b da1 ra7 db2 cc1 rd2 re2 rf2 cf5 hg1 rg2 mg4 eh1 rh3 hh5 rh7


proposed X=65

[EDIT: fixed typo, thanks harvestsnow]
Title: Re: helpgoal contest
Post by Hippo on Jan 29th, 2014, 9:05am
Just to add the diagram for X=65 harvestnow made:

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/notconv/old/boardimg.php?orient=n&size=300&imgtype=png&ranks=/r6r/7D/5cHh/5DmE/1C4Hr/CdRrrrrR/cMdRR1he
]Final solutio

I bet this is the final solution.
Title: Re: helpgoal contest
Post by harvestsnow on Jan 29th, 2014, 10:41am
There's a typo, the correct position is
Ca2 Mb1 Cb3 Rc2 Rd1 Re1 Df4 Hg3 Hg5 Rh2 Eh4 Dh6 da1 ra7 db2 cc1 rd2 re2 rf2 cf5 hg1 rg2 mg4 eh1 rh3 hh5 rh7
(dog on b2 to freeze the cats).

Ca2 Mb1 Cb3 Rc2 Rd1 Re1 Df4 Hg3 Hg5 Rh2 Eh4 Dh6 da1 ca3 db2 cc1 rd2 re2 rf2 hg1 rg2 mg4 eh1 rh3 hh5 rh7
comes close, with X=63:
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/notconv/old/boardimg.php?orient=n&size=300&imgtype=png&ranks=/7r/7D/6Hh/5DmE/cC4Hr/CdRrrrrR/dMcRR1he



This one seems really hard to beat (but we already said that for the 51 solution).

It was a collective work by 5HT, aaaa, browni3141, cadwallon, chessandgo, Hippo, jdb, kzb52, Sconibulus, Silvermitt and I probably forgot someone. Read the chat logs from january 26 to 29 to figure out the credits.
Title: Re: helpgoal contest
Post by Hippo on Jan 29th, 2014, 12:28pm

on 01/29/14 at 09:05:30, Hippo wrote:
Just to add the diagram for X=65 harvestnow made:

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/notconv/old/boardimg.php?orient=n&size=300&imgtype=png&ranks=/r6r/7D/5cHh/5DmE/1C4Hr/CdRrrrrR/cMdRR1he
]Not final solutio

I bet this is the final solution.


Oops, there is a bug there ... X=63, but it has a solution :)

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/notconv/old/boardimg.php?orient=n&size=300&imgtype=png&ranks=/r6r/7D/5cHh/5DmE/rC4Hr/CdRrrrrR/eMdRR1hc
]Final solutio
Title: Re: helpgoal contest
Post by Hippo on Jan 29th, 2014, 1:04pm

on 01/26/14 at 13:05:11, kzb52 wrote:
Is there any limit on the number of submissions a player may make?  In any event I think that for this position X = 5 (goal on 4g) although I am far from sure.  Fun contest though!

1g Cf7 Ch2 De6 Rg3 Rh3 He4 Hf4 Eg4 Rh5 Df6 Mg2

1s cf2 ch7 de3 rg6 rh6 he5 hf5 eg5 rh4 df3 mg7


Actually X=4 here (2g He4w Hf4w Eg4w Cf7w
2s eg5s rg6s rh6w mg7w
3g Rh5n cf2s Mg2w Ch2w
3s ch7w Rh6n Rh7n cg7e)
Title: Re: helpgoal contest
Post by harvestsnow on Jan 29th, 2014, 1:51pm

Quote:
Oops, there is a bug there ... X=63, but it has a solution Smiley

Well spotted! The rabbit pull frees the camel in the first one, so it can be done one move sooner.
Title: Re: helpgoal contest
Post by harvestsnow on Jan 30th, 2014, 4:45am
One further correction:
Ca2 Mb1 Cb3 Rc2 Rd1 Df4 Hg3 Hg5 Rh1 Rh2 Eh4 Dh6 ea1 ra3 ra7 db2 cc1 rd2 he1 re2 df1 rf2 cf5 rg2 mg4 rh3 hh5 rh7

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/notconv/old/boardimg.php?orient=n&size=300&imgtype=png&ranks=/r6r/7D/5cHh/5DmE/rC4Hr/CdRrrrrR/eMcRhd1R

Otherwise Rh2 can be pulled back. Thanks Silvermitt.


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