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Topic: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games (Read 522408 times) |
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NickBentley
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1080 on: Dec 5th, 2012, 12:44pm » |
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I should also mention that it's my belief in the fundamentally subjective nature of quality that I think most of us who participate in these discussions are waaaaaay too quick to judge games that we haven't played. The "feel" of a game just can't be easily inferred from the rules.
It seems like every one of us in this little world are guilty. There are plenty of examples in this very thread (dismissals of Rampart, dismissal of Christian's Othellish game).
I remember before I played Slither I did the exact same thing. For a few years prior, I'd been playing Hex (and the game of Y) with the same move protocol (minus the diagonal restriction, since there are no diagonals on Hex boards). Since Slither is almost identical to these games, my first reaction to Slither (which was then called "Particle Bond") was "So what? It already exists".
Of course, since I try to be a polite person, I didn't say it out loud, and it's good I didn't, because it would have been a stupid thing to say.
That reinforced for me an important lesson: when it comes to abstract games, even tiny little changes can fundamentally transform the feel of a game, and it's impossible to feel the force of these effects by merely perusing the rules. If it weren't so, we all would have noticed how good Slither was right away. But we didn't. Someone had to play it, be blown away, and tell everyone else about the experience.
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NickBentley
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1081 on: Dec 5th, 2012, 1:58pm » |
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PS can one of you guys give me a christmas present? On BGG, Ketchup needs just one more rating to achieve an official BGG ranking, which would be my first game and only game to achieve it. Anybody wanna help a brother out? (feel free to rate negatively. No offense will be taken)
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1082 on: Dec 5th, 2012, 2:18pm » |
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on Dec 5th, 2012, 1:58pm, NickBentley wrote:| PS can one of you guys give me a christmas present? On BGG, Ketchup needs just one more rating to achieve an official BGG ranking, which would be my first game and only game to achieve it. Anybody wanna help a brother out? (feel free to rate negatively. No offense will be taken) |
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I'd gladly help you out there with an 8, but I seem to have this weird disconnect with BGG.
What I expect is that you click ratings and then you come to ratings, so far so good, and then I expect something like "Rate this game". But I can't find it. My stupidity, I'm sure, but help me out here, or I can't help you out 
P.S. The "Othellish game" is called Triccs and I wonder, when you discussed it with Luis, who had misread the rules, whether anyone else had missed the "... and only if, " ? Because judging from the rules is difficult, as you say, but judging from misreading the rules (need I recall Symple?) is even more difficult.
P.P.S. That's why I made the rules of Scware especially symple  .
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| « Last Edit: Dec 5th, 2012, 2:54pm by christianF » |
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NickBentley
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1083 on: Dec 5th, 2012, 2:31pm » |
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I didn't ever discuss the game with Luis, so I'm not the one you're looking for. In any case, I didn't make that the mistake you mention when I read them. I haven't played it yet though, so don't have any opinion about it yet.
As for famously unintuitive BGG functions: go down to the bottom of the Ketchup page on BGG, and you'll see a section called "user information". In that section, there's an option called "record information". Click on the plus sign for that option and the option to rate will appear.
Thanks kindly Christian!
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1084 on: Dec 5th, 2012, 2:54pm » |
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on Dec 5th, 2012, 2:31pm, NickBentley wrote:| I didn't ever discuss the game with Luis, so I'm not the one you're looking for. In any case, I didn't make that the mistake you mention when I read them. I haven't played it yet though, so don't have any opinion about it yet. |
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Ah, ok, hope you like it. The rating mission has succeeded by the way, thanks.
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NickBentley
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1085 on: Dec 5th, 2012, 4:58pm » |
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I'm definitely going to play, since, as you may recall, turning the Othello mechanism into a good game is one of my interests. Don't know when it will happen though. Maybe not until new year.
Thanks for the rating!
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1086 on: Dec 6th, 2012, 3:34am » |
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on Dec 5th, 2012, 4:58pm, NickBentley wrote:| I'm definitely going to play, since, as you may recall, turning the Othello mechanism into a good game is one of my interests. |
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That's the irony of inventing. I wanted, one time, far far away in the 20th century, to invent a minimal chess variant. The question was: "what does one actually need to implement checkmate". A king, obviously, and this and that and such and so, and I came up with an elegant and deep variant (if in doubt, try) that I named Chad. Later I was fooling around with Ravensburger's attempt at over the top simplicity (in German) and suddenly realized I had accidentally found a minimal chess variant that decidedly beat my previous deliberate attempt.
In this case I wasn't trying to make an 'othello variant' at all. I was addressing an unruly kind of organism and in the process found a move protocol that would bring the game through a 'first phase' that would stop with the board far from filled, because the placement conditions would gradually disappear. At that point I stopped looking at the protocol in terms of the 'unruly organism' because it seemed to point at a "minimum # of groups" object, and that implied having to rule out draws, because that minimum is too easily the same for both. So I switched to "territory". The question was how to proceed after phase 1. Since the first phase had a two-step protocol, I wanted to continue that. So I thought, "well, free placement and a small move", and there othelloanian capture presented itself as a fairly modest way to grab territory. Not the big flipflaps of Othello, but a single line captured between the placed and the moved stone. So "Othello" entered the equation at the very end.
You can "plan" to Kingdom Come, but without a bit of luck and things coming together by chance, game inventing can be a frustrating endeavour. And I wasn't planning anything in the first place. But every other Fall or so I seem to switch to automatic  .
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| « Last Edit: Dec 6th, 2012, 6:49am by christianF » |
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1087 on: Dec 6th, 2012, 5:06am » |
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Where would I be without Luis? Probably still in Enschede, but with a bug in the rules of Scware:
Luis sent me this position where neither can connect by "growing any or all groups" without leaving a bare diagonal connection. So he suggested to add "... unless they are part of the same group" to the restriction rule. It appears to solve the problem but we can't be quite sure - this is a very small board with an unlikely position (both have left groups 'ungrown' or have made a single placement where growth would have been logical). If anyone can refute Luis solution we would appreciate the attempt.
Edit: In fact, I've rephrased the rule to:- "At the end of a player's turn any two diagonally adjacent like-colored stones must be part of the same group."
This rule, which includes having a mutual neighbor, is shorter and more generic than the original one, and may be worth considering in other games with the "mutual neighbor" condition.
Edit 2:
Quote:Luis:
Just for the record, here's another drawn position under the former Scware rules:
Maybe you'd like to add it to the Arimaa post. I would post it myself, but I don't have those gorgeous red and white photoshopped graphics handy
Note that my suggested restriction rule also works here.
I seriously doubt there are any other problematic positions which are qualitatively different to these two. They're adaptations to the Scware case of the only two patterns I had to take into account when I designed Vimbre.
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The 'same group' condition isn't only generic, but works as intended because you cannot actually cut a diagonal connection if the two pieces concerned are in the same group: one end of the cutting chain would end up inside that group (even disregarding the fact that the cutting chain itself implicitly has a diagonal connection and thus would have to satisfy the 'same group' condition, making a cut not only useless, but impossible).
That's why the generic phrasing is better if preventing a cut is what the rule intends to do.
Edit 3:
Now that the Symple move protocol gets some exposure as a mutator, as I believe Joćo Pedro Neto coined a mechanism that is applicable to a range of games, we've decided to bumpup the priority list. Applets will be available as soon as Ed finds some time to make them.
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| « Last Edit: Dec 7th, 2012, 9:45am by christianF » |
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1088 on: Dec 9th, 2012, 7:05am » |
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on Dec 6th, 2012, 5:06am, christianF wrote:| Applets will be available as soon as Ed finds some time to make them. |
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Both games can now be played at mindsports.
Since Scware has no compulsory placement, the applet can only determine the end of a move by its being submitted, and only then can it effectively test the "same group" condition. We'll try to work around that, but as it is, if a move that violates the condition is submitted, the applet will instead perform a "pass" and the player will have to undo and make a legal move instead. Not the first prize for user friendlyness, but at least effective. Of course Symple Hex needs no such test.
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| « Last Edit: Dec 9th, 2012, 7:06am by christianF » |
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1089 on: Dec 12th, 2012, 8:24am » |
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Phalanx
Being a multi-player game has its drawbacks. It's difficult to avoid a festival of collusion over the board, not to mention online and turnbased. It also prevents any serious consideration as a two-player game. So I decided to shift the emphasis and give the two player version a regular board and, for those who know the game, an obvious initial position.
Phalanx is a friendly game in which you may do a lot and have to do nothing. It allows for coopetrative cycles to give troubled minds the opportunity to demonstrate the obvious. It can end in a draw to allow less troubled minds to enjoy an even game without the game itself pushing one through the grinder, and worst of all, it's fun. Need I say more?
Yes, I might as well: it also has neutral stones arising from captures. Sounds familiar? Well, it has had them for more than a quarter of a century in case anyone wonders. Because despite the facts - Phalanx was invented in or around 1984 and was mentioned sideways here exactly three years ago - reality can be elusive. 
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| « Last Edit: Dec 14th, 2012, 8:43am by christianF » |
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1090 on: Dec 14th, 2012, 7:01am » |
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mindsports bot section
There are at least two Symple bots registered at mindsports, that are on standby 24/7 via the normal email protocol. They are the numbers 1 and 3 of the last played test round in the CodeCup. "Engine" goes by the name of "B_ot". I've played against both of them for weeks, because they're fast to reply (barring occasional modifications of the programs) and I get a lot of 'feel' for the game that way. I was only vaguely aware that connecting that way required some delicate programming skills, till I told Ed, who hadn't been aware of their presence. He was rather amazed at how well it worked.
Since we had just been discussing how to get Marcin Ciura's Havannah bot "Lajkonik" permanently available at mindsports, the protocol used by the Symple bot programmers would seem to be the obvious way. Lajkonik is one of the three bots that participated in the Havannah challenge.
So, all else remaining equal, we're considering a separate bot section in the Player Section, to give them some exposure rather than having them blend in between the human players. This will have to wait till after the CodeCup however, of which the final testround will be played on Dec. 22 and the final competition on Jan. 12. The section would also make a good place for analyzers like this one.
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| « Last Edit: Dec 14th, 2012, 7:24am by christianF » |
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1091 on: Dec 15th, 2012, 5:39am » |
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I've started two games against B_ot in the CodeCup format: Base-15, Penalty-6.Playing white, I like to keep away from black before any growth has taken place, because of his 'grow and place' option that allows for early tactical enclosure. Playing black I obviously seek closer contact for the same reason. There are some comments along the way.
So there you have it, human superiority, if only for the day .
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| « Last Edit: Dec 15th, 2012, 10:21am by christianF » |
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1092 on: Dec 16th, 2012, 6:21am » |
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Here are two more games against B_ot, this time not in the CodeCup format but in my favorite one: Base-19, Penalty-10.There will be some comments along the way.
Edit:
Humanity wins again All humanity? Well, maybe you should try. I've played some 100 games now and the game begins to feel as natural as riding a bike. Now it's more about learning new strategies and tricks.
Elkasimi Abdessamad's bot was out today, probably because he's working on the program, so it might not react immediately.
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| « Last Edit: Dec 16th, 2012, 2:46pm by christianF » |
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1093 on: Dec 18th, 2012, 6:21am » |
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Bots are one thing, but humans are still another cup of tea, fortunately. Here's a base-19, penalty-10 game between yours truly and Jos Dekker, a dutch Go player working in Germany who has some 25 games under his belt.The comments are dutch so far, but we'll switch to english for the gallery .
Edit:
What did I tell you? Humans have long term planning and Jos aimed for the center. I wanted to see how far he could take it. That plan at least was successful: I saw clearly how far. Here's another one for good measure:Just barely .
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| « Last Edit: Dec 20th, 2012, 3:06pm by christianF » |
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1094 on: Dec 22nd, 2012, 7:41am » |
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Not so much a 'wave' this Fall, more of a ripple. Triccs is recreational stuff, Pit material, collateral damage, whatever, but it still had a puzzle.
Quote:Players place and move stones only with their color up. White starts with placing one stone on the empty board. The pie rule applies: black is entitled to play with that initial move or against it. From that point on players take turns to:
1. Place a stone on a cell that has only vacant adjacent cells, and ...
2. ... place a stone on a on a cell that is adjacent to at least one cell occupied by an opponent's stone, while not adjacent to any cell occupied by a friendly stone.
Placement of both stones is compulsory until the player to move can no longer make the first or second placement. If he cannot make the second placement, he must make the first and his turn is over. If he cannot make the first placement, then from that moment on players take turns to: .... |
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The puzzle was: is a position possible where a player can meet the conditions of the first placement, but not of the second? If not, then it would not be necessary to mention the possibility in the rules. And the answer is ... I still don't know, but on a base-3 hexboard, the position in question can be arrived at.
 can lead to   
On the left it's blacks turn and he has 3 options for the first placement: From left to right, black places the first (4) stone so that white cannot meet the first condition on his next move, then he places the first stone so that white can meet the first condition on his next move, but not the second, and finally he places it so that white can meet the conditions of both placements. It suggests that the rule dealing with it should not be omitted on the base-6 board for the time being.
Recreational games should not be treated any less conscientious than games that have more unity and are less of an assembly than say Triccs. I care about my collateral damage. Without it how would greater games be recognized?
Edit:
Guess what? Ed has made a Triccs applet and we're running a test game.
We're also playing a game of Scware for that matter, a game I suspect of being more than collateral damage.
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| « Last Edit: Dec 22nd, 2012, 11:33am by christianF » |
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