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   Author  Topic: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games  (Read 380475 times)
MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #480 on: Jun 28th, 2011, 1:49pm »

on Jun 28th, 2011, 12:53pm, MarkSteere wrote:

You gotta get centered.

You're probably not smoking enough pot, lol.  sfffffffff.....
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #481 on: Jun 28th, 2011, 2:26pm »

on Jun 28th, 2011, 12:53pm, MarkSteere wrote:
One day you're promoting magical games and the next you're withdrawing a seemingly normal game from iggc development because of a perceived "long shadow". You gotta get centered.

You're trying to shoot an eagle while saving a sparrow - how centered can you get.
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #482 on: Jun 28th, 2011, 3:07pm »

on Jun 28th, 2011, 2:26pm, christianF wrote:

You're trying to shoot an eagle

I shot down a magical phoenix, an outlandish claim about a game's behavior, because it was casting a long shadow.
 
The only negative thing I ever said about Sygo was that its balancing mechanism was an aesthetic Hiroshima.
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #483 on: Jun 28th, 2011, 3:53pm »

on Jun 28th, 2011, 3:07pm, MarkSteere wrote:

The only negative thing I ever said about Sygo was that its balancing mechanism was an aesthetic Hiroshima.

...and that it's not my fault if Sygo's a dud, a direct response to you blaming me for Sygo's dudliness.
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #484 on: Jun 30th, 2011, 10:49am »

For those interested in Sygo, my Taiwanese opponent and I are getting better. In our new game I'm black and I'm cashing my prerogative at move 4 (growing three, placing one). Apart from previous arguments about move 4 being about right, white was trying to isolate the upper left black stone.
 
Black 4 simultaneously attacks white's last placed stone and white 5 came as a surprise: if I grow to keep d12 alive, I can't create a new group and the I'll be lagging behind. So I felt forced to placement of a single, while dragging the most influence from the undead stone at d12.
 
Local tactics are thus upsetting the vague division between a 'placement' and a 'growing' stage. To secure his grip on d12 and the upper left side, white decides to grow instead of placing a new single.
 
I consider d12 a sacrifice and place at g15, securing the upper left corner and taking the lead in the number of groups.
 
White 7 I feel is not so good. It tries embryonically to wall of the center so 8. ... j10 seemed appropriate.
 
White and black 8 are both growing moves, to create 'shape and body'
 
After these security measures, the positions seem save enough for further placements, and black 9 simultaneously attacks the white 2-group below the center.
 
White 10 aims to connect (often dubious because it takes away growth potential) ... I'm not sure what to do yet.
 
June 30, and this is where we are.
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #485 on: Jun 30th, 2011, 12:39pm »

on Jun 30th, 2011, 10:49am, christianF wrote:

For those interested in Sygo,

The topic was a little fresher last year.
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #486 on: Jul 1st, 2011, 10:46am »

on Jun 28th, 2011, 3:07pm, MarkSteere wrote:

I shot down a magical phoenix,

No, you didn't.  Fawkes circled Hogwarts after Dumbledore was killed and was not seen again.
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #487 on: Jul 1st, 2011, 12:40pm »

on Jul 1st, 2011, 10:46am, RonWeasley wrote:

No, you didn't.  Fawkes circled Hogwarts after Dumbledore was killed and was not seen again.

Severus Steere, the half-blood inventor, go figure that Wink
 
Juli 1st: we're five moves onwards and I won a tactical battle for the center, trapping two white groups without connecting my own, keeping up the potential for growth. Consolidation seems the best strategy now, while invasion at the right side ... well maybe at the right time, but I see no immediate need.
« Last Edit: Jul 1st, 2011, 2:13pm by christianF » IP Logged
MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #488 on: Jul 1st, 2011, 1:42pm »

on Jul 1st, 2011, 12:40pm, christianF wrote:

Severus Steere, the half-blood inventor,

Phenomenal architecture is my reality. No conjuring necessary, though it must seem like magic to some.
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #489 on: Jul 1st, 2011, 2:53pm »

on Jul 1st, 2011, 1:42pm, MarkSteere wrote:

Phenomenal architecture is my reality.
As provided by a sharp lack of intuition and a tight straitjacket of dogmatic restrictions. Uninhabitable at times, but phenomenal by definition. Your reality indeed Grin .
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #490 on: Jul 1st, 2011, 6:40pm »

on Jul 1st, 2011, 2:53pm, christianF wrote:

> Phenomenal architecture is my reality.  
 
As provided by a sharp lack of intuition

How can you look at a game like Fractal and ever question my architectural intuition?  Abstract game design doesn't get any more intuitive than Fractal, unless it's another MSG game, like Flume.  Sheer architectural intuition.  You'd know that if you had any.
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #491 on: Jul 2nd, 2011, 2:01am »

Your journey in intuitive design oddly coincides with the path of endless tweaking. You're like Nick Bentley with Ketchup.  Explain.
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #492 on: Jul 2nd, 2011, 3:46am »

on Jul 2nd, 2011, 2:01am, MarkSteere wrote:
Your journey in intuitive design oddly coincides with the path of endless tweaking. You're like Nick Bentley with Ketchup.  Explain.
Apart from there being no need to change any rule in any game of the latest wave so far, Symple and Sygo included *, I should point out that Nick's latest 'tweak' turned Ketchup into one of the very best games I've seen in a long time. Some ideas clarify themselves in the very process of implementation. You should know that after Monkey Queen. Of course those weren't 'tweaks' because ... well, you made them and "you don't need tweaks".
 
It was Nick's intuition that told him that something wasn't quite right and it is to his credit that he listened and waited for the game to reveal what it wanted.
That the eventual unfolding of the game's true nature turned out to be a simplification doesn't surprise me at all: if the system is sound, the rule will be there.
 
Nick also takes into account all the right criteria - not everybody always does.
 
P.S. Oust, Flume, Atoll, Fractal maybe, all excellent games. I'm not saying your approach doesn't coincide with a good game, every now and then.
But then, Monkey Queen? I feel something isn't quite right.
Cage? I think something is definitely wrong.
Rive? Well to keep it in Harry Potter terms, liquid boredom.
(great architecture though Wink )
 
P.P.S. My opponent resigned our last Sygo game on move 16.
 
 
* Come to think of it, Cyclix had a minor fix.
« Last Edit: Jul 2nd, 2011, 1:26pm by christianF » IP Logged
MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #493 on: Jul 2nd, 2011, 1:48pm »

on Jul 2nd, 2011, 3:46am, christianF wrote:

Apart from not having to tweak any game of the latest wave, Symple and Sygo included...

rofl
 
From the Symple announcement(s):
"The only thing playtesting suggests is to set the parameter '2n' at n=2."
 
From the Symple rule sheet:
"Values between 4 and 12 would seem to give the most interesting play."  
 
In other words, "What do I know? Go figure it out." lol
 
Hanniball was a flailing tweakfest, and after all that flailing it's still draw prone.  Haniball already has an 8% draw rate among beginners, which most everyone still is at a total game count of 124, at Game Site X.  This does not bode well for advancing Hanniball players.  
 
on Jul 2nd, 2011, 3:46am, christianF wrote:

Rive? Well to keep it in Harry Potter terms, liquid boredom.

Jeez, I hope it isn't as bad as Grabber, which was suddenly deemed so vile it had to be yanked from Game Site X development.  Or draw graveyard Recyclix (recycled/mutilated Monkey Queen).
 
on Jul 2nd, 2011, 3:46am, christianF wrote:

* Come to think of it, Cyclix had a minor fix.

*Ya' don't say.
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #494 on: Jul 2nd, 2011, 2:21pm »

on Jul 2nd, 2011, 1:48pm, MarkSteere wrote:
From the Symple announcement(s):
"The only thing playtesting suggests is to set the parameter '2n' at n=2."
 
From the Symple rule sheet:
"Values between 4 and 12 would seem to give the most interesting play."  
 
In other words, "What do I know? Go figure it out." lol

Making the basic parameter optional gives players a choice in changing the character of the game. A very novel mechanism. But indeed, what do you know.
 
on Jul 2nd, 2011, 1:48pm, MarkSteere wrote:
Hanniball was a flailing tweakfest, and after all that flailing it's still draw prone.  Haniball already has an 8% draw rate among beginners, which most everyone still is at a total game count of 124, at Game Site X. This does not bode well for advancing Hanniball players.

Yes, quite right, Hanniball and YvY weren't part of the latest wave though.
« Last Edit: Jul 2nd, 2011, 2:22pm by christianF » IP Logged
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