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Topic: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games (Read 522115 times) |
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #570 on: Aug 5th, 2011, 11:20am » |
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on Aug 5th, 2011, 10:17am, MarkSteere wrote:| Christian, would you be surprised if your self-described "children's game", Monkey Trap, never entered my mind during Monkey Queen's development? Or that you're utterly incapable of "inspiring" me in any sense of the word? lol |
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I see, unfortunately people can read  .
on Aug 5th, 2011, 10:17am, MarkSteere wrote:| Ironically, while you're desperately claiming all the credit you can for Monkey Queen, you neglect to credit Don Green for his Snail Trail, virtually identical to but preceding your Monkey Trap. Instead, in your Monkey Trap rule sheet, you note the "obvious affinity with Walter Zamkauskas' Amazons", rofl With all your vast powers of intuition, Christian, here you are "intuiting" Don Green's game. |
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Why did Snail Trail never enter my mind? Because I put MT together as a joke called "Turd", inspired by none other than The Annoying Devil (start at 4.00).
It was on the spur of the moment and it took me two minutes. The obvious affinity with Amazons occured to me afterwards, and the 'virtually identical' Snail Trail ... you're making this up along the way, right?
The profoundly uninspiring game led you to react thus:
Quote:Perfect! lol Just what the doctor ordered! lol
F**king <victim #1> and <victim #2> leaving a trail of sh!t behind them and eventually getting stuck in it! lol
Oh glorious major SMACK down!! All in the context of a game related discussion! lol |
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That seems rather inspiring to me. How many Mark Steeres are there, exactly?
P.S. I just cite recorded facts, and you might as well address the issue (instead of your 'issue').
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| « Last Edit: Aug 5th, 2011, 11:44am by christianF » |
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #571 on: Aug 5th, 2011, 12:41pm » |
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on Aug 5th, 2011, 11:20am, christianF wrote:
Mark Steere wrote: "Or that you're utterly incapable of "inspiring" me in any sense of the word?"
I see, unfortunately people can read . |
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Yes, they can. And if there were ever an instance of me being inspired by you, people could cite that instance.
on Aug 5th, 2011, 11:20am, christianF wrote:
The profoundly uninspiring game led you to react thus:
"Perfect! lol Just what the doctor ordered! lol"
That seems rather inspiring to me. |
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Christian, in the English language there's a huge difference between inspiring and amusing. You've amused me countless times, usually at your own expense. But you continue to be a non-inspiration in game design - at least for me.
on Aug 5th, 2011, 11:20am, christianF wrote:
How many Mark Steeres are there, exactly? |
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There's only one. But if there were other Mark Steeres, they too would find you uninspiring.
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #572 on: Aug 5th, 2011, 1:11pm » |
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on Aug 5th, 2011, 11:20am, christianF wrote:| I just cite recorded facts, and you might as well address the issue (instead of your 'issue'). |
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The issue being the criticism given by Nick, me and others on the 'magnificent architecture' of Monkey Queen. But it's hard if not impossible for you to deal with criticism. Clouding the issue, wallowing in innuendo and rewriting history are your standard ways out. In that you are a genius indeed  .
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #573 on: Aug 5th, 2011, 2:08pm » |
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on Aug 5th, 2011, 1:11pm, christianF wrote:
The issue being the criticism given by Nick, me and others |
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I reflexively shun conventional wisdom as a matter of policy, never more automatically than with "Nick, [you], and others", lol
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #574 on: Aug 5th, 2011, 2:22pm » |
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on Aug 5th, 2011, 2:08pm, MarkSteere wrote:
I reflexively shun conventional wisdom as a matter of policy, never more automatically than with "Nick, [you], and others", lol |
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Good, there's a lot of conventional wisdom here.
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #575 on: Aug 6th, 2011, 3:53am » |
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on Aug 4th, 2011, 4:14pm, NickBentley wrote:| I'm butting in because I'm bored. |
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Hi Nick,
I'm not sure butting in was the right remedy  .
How about a new contest? Corey Clark reminded me that I even had suggested a theme (a misere, i.e. "lose to win" game that is not made by reversing the object of a regular game). I had forgotten about that.
But I'm open to any theme as long as the contest serves conventional wisdom by having a public vote.
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #576 on: Aug 6th, 2011, 9:34am » |
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on Aug 6th, 2011, 3:53am, christianF wrote:
I'm open to any theme as long as the contest serves conventional wisdom by having a public vote. |
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What was wrong with the last contest? Oh that's right. You lost. If you can't win it, rig it.
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NickBentley
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #577 on: Aug 6th, 2011, 10:35am » |
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I wasn't aware that the stacking contest ever concluded. Who won?
I also started a contest on rec.games.combinatorial. There were a lot of submissions, and it appears a couple of good games among them, but that contest didn't resolve either because nobody could be bothered to send in their votes.
I don't think I'll have the time to run a good contest (or even one that concludes in a timely manner)
p.s. christian: just wrote a little more about a game we were talking about - http://nickbentley.posterous.com/more-morro
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #578 on: Aug 6th, 2011, 10:49am » |
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on Aug 5th, 2011, 1:11pm, christianF wrote:| Clouding the issue, wallowing in innuendo and rewriting history are your standard ways out. |
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on Aug 6th, 2011, 9:34am, MarkSteere wrote:| What was wrong with the last contest? Oh that's right. You lost. If you can't win it, rig it. |
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You forgot to rewrite history .
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #579 on: Aug 6th, 2011, 11:10am » |
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on Aug 6th, 2011, 10:35am, NickBentley wrote:I wasn't aware that the stacking contest ever concluded. Who won?
I also started a contest on rec.games.combinatorial. There were a lot of submissions, and it appears a couple of good games among them, but that contest didn't resolve either because nobody could be bothered to send in their votes.
I don't think I'll have the time to run a good contest (or even one that concludes in a timely manner)
p.s. christian: just wrote a little more about a game we were talking about - http://nickbentley.posterous.com/more-morro |
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Ok, leave it for the moment.
You can find the results of last year's contest here:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.abstract/browse_thread/thread/3 23d336c511edeb1#
Or wait for Mark to rewrite history.
Morro seems somewhat hard to approach indeed. Should it be opaque like Othello, then it may still be interesting like Othello. A rule stating that a player may drop a number of stones up to and including the number of the longest row would rid you of "If there aren't enough empty spaces left to do so, just fill up the board". The must then must be may of course, but since you stress the importance material advantage, my question would be: Is there ever an incentive to not place all stones?
P.S. It's not like Othello, there's no volatility, and it's not tactical (as opposed to strategical) because the strategy is neither obvious nor opaque (because everything remains 'solid', not 'fluid' as in Othello).
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| « Last Edit: Aug 6th, 2011, 11:20am by christianF » |
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NickBentley
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #580 on: Aug 6th, 2011, 11:58am » |
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"You can find the results of last year's contest here:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.abstract/browse_thread/thread/3 23d336c511edeb1#"
A tie! Too funny.
"Morro seems somewhat hard to approach indeed. Should it be opaque like Othello, then it may still be interesting like Othello. A rule stating that a player may drop a number of stones up to and including the number of the longest row would rid you of "If there aren't enough empty spaces left to do so, just fill up the board". The must then must be may of course, but since you stress the importance material advantage, my question would be: Is there ever an incentive to not place all stones?"
Good question. I think there may be. Specifically, there appear to be instances where placing all your stones will force you to take the lead when you don't want to: i.e. taking the lead will give your opponent enough stones seal a victory where he would not otherwise have been able. So the question is: would giving a player a choice make the game better or worse? I don't know. Do you have a sense? I'll definitely test it. Great suggestion.
"P.S. It's not like Othello, there's no volatility, and it's not tactical (as opposed to strategical) because the strategy is neither obvious nor opaque (because everything remains 'solid', not 'fluid' as in Othello)."
Well the strategy isn't obvious, but my jury's out on whether it's too opaque. One possibly redeeming aspect is that when they first play, new players seem to have a clear strategic idea: to just sort of "race" to the longest row. It's totally wrong but I regard it as a good thing when a game provokes in players a clear motivation to do some particular thing right away, even (and especially) if that thing turns out to be wrong. My worry is that after you get past that stage, there might be a long fallow period during which strategic insights are few and far between. That could be discouraging.
p.s. how to generate quote boxes here?
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #581 on: Aug 6th, 2011, 12:00pm » |
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Timo Ewald's Castro_bot invited me for a base-7-8-9 game of Havannah, to test some improvements, and what did I think of its handling of rings.
I think three classic rules apply for handling its handling: Carefully, carefully, carefully.
But it isn't quite there yet, considering the 2012 games are base-10.
Base-7
Base-8
Base-9
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #582 on: Aug 6th, 2011, 12:11pm » |
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on Aug 6th, 2011, 11:58am, NickBentley wrote:| Good question. I think there may be. Specifically, there appear to be instances where placing all your stones will force you to take the lead when you don't want to: i.e. taking the lead will give your opponent enough stones seal a victory where he would not otherwise have been able. So the question is: would giving a player a choice make the game better or worse? I don't know. Do you have a sense? I'll definitely test it. Great suggestion. |
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Don't get your hopes too high, you may just have refuted the idea. I can't tell. Forcing your opponent into defeat by forcing him/her to take the lead sounds good, in any case.
on Aug 6th, 2011, 11:58am, NickBentley wrote:| Well the strategy isn't obvious, but my jury's out on whether it's too opaque. One possibly redeeming aspect is that when they first play, new players seem to have a clear strategic idea: to just sort of "race" to the longest row. It's totally wrong but I regard it as a good thing when a game provokes in players a clear motivation to do some particular thing right away, even (and especially) if that thing turns out to be wrong. My worry is that after you get past that stage, there might be a long fallow period during which strategic insights are few and far between. That could be discouraging. |
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From clear albeit wrong ideas to Foggyville? Seems unlikely.
on Aug 6th, 2011, 11:58am, NickBentley wrote:| p.s. how to generate quote boxes here? |
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Try (quote)text(/quote) but with square brackets "[" "]".
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NickBentley
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #583 on: Aug 6th, 2011, 12:21pm » |
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on Aug 6th, 2011, 12:00pm, christianF wrote:Timo Ewald's Castro_bot invited me for a base-7-8-9 game of Havannah, to test some improvements, and what did I think of its handling of rings.
I think three classic rules apply for handling its handling: Carefully, carefully, carefully.
But it isn't quite there yet, considering the 2012 games are base-10.
Base-7
Base-8
Base-9
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Can you elaborate on what "carefully" means? I'm very curious, since, you know, I have a big interest in Havannah's loops.
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #584 on: Aug 6th, 2011, 12:28pm » |
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on Aug 6th, 2011, 12:11pm, christianF wrote:| Forcing your opponent into defeat by forcing him/her to take the lead sounds good, in any case. |
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But I doubt if it is a frequent occurence. It can be constructed no doubt, but whether such a construction reflects a position that would occur in actual play? Who's to tell? I once found a Havannah position from the very early days, and it didn't exactly look like Havannah.
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