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Topic: Game viewer / analysis tool (Read 63177 times) |
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clojure
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #90 on: Oct 24th, 2010, 1:05pm » |
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on Oct 24th, 2010, 12:54pm, Fritzlein wrote:| Does the setup variation always occur only as a branch under Gold's setup and not as a branch under Silver's setup? |
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Yes. I might change that later, but I didn't consider it important enough for the additional complexity.
Please note also, as previously mentioned, that setup variations are not saved (just to be sure  ).
I'm baffled why the game didn't load. You shouldn't need to change "w" and "b", and I also have implemented the notion of "removal step"; both for only importing to support Arimaa.com games. So there must be some minor bug. Shouldn't be too hard to find out.
Thanks for the compliments, Hippo and Fritzlein, also any additional bug reports / complaints are welcome.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 24th, 2010, 1:05pm by clojure » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #91 on: Oct 24th, 2010, 1:28pm » |
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on Oct 24th, 2010, 1:05pm, clojure wrote:| Thanks for the compliments, Hippo and Fritzlein, also any additional bug reports / complaints are welcome. |
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The compliments will keep flowing because something like this was desperately needed, but also hard to make. This is a great service.
I turned off the shadowing at first, thinking it was a distraction, but as I imagine talking through a position I can see how useful it will be to see both the current situation and what is about to happen. The shadowing is back on; a great feature.
I am also experimenting with square highlighting. Tentatively I am using yellow for danger and blue for safety, although I think green for safety might be more intuitive. Are the highlight colors you chose special? Also, is it impossible to highlight a trap?
I just tried adding some annotation, exporting, and reimporting. The import failed.
Code:
1g Ra1 Rb1 Cc1 Rd1 Ce1 Rf1 Rg1 Rh1 Ra2 Hb2 Mc2 Dd2 Ee2 Df2 Hg2 Rh2
1s "Standard split horses. Offset camel weakens h2 rabbit, menaces c6." ra7 mb7 rc7 ed7 he7 rf7 hg7 rh7 ra8 cb8 rc8 dd8 de8 rf8 cg8 rh8
2g "Silver setup deters EH attack on either wing; Gold probably wants lone-E attack or EMHR attack in west." Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Ee5w "Reasonable to get the gold E towards an M or R pull as part of a lone-elephant attack, while constraining the silver E."
[ 2g Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Hg2n "Normal move has dual threat of EH on f6 or pulling h7 R, but here f6 is safe." ] 2s "Silver has no way to stop a R pull and is thus very anxious for counterplay." @xa6=A @xb6=A ed7s dd8s hg7s hg6s
3g Hg2n Hb2n Mc2n Cc1n "Gold improves four pieces and asks Silver to commit."
[ 3g Ed5w Ec5w Eb5n Hg2n "Gold launches the lone E with one defensive step." 3s @xg2=B @xb6=A ed6s dd7s rc7e mb7e
4g Eb6w Ea6s ra7s Hb2n
] 3s ed6w ec6s ec5s cg8s
4g Mc3e Md3e Me3e Rd1w
4s ec4e ed4e ee4e de8w
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This only imported up to the actual 2g; the variant 2g and beyond was not imported. 
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| « Last Edit: Oct 24th, 2010, 1:31pm by Fritzlein » |
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clojure
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #92 on: Oct 24th, 2010, 1:30pm » |
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The problem with importing from Arimaa.com was with the handling of moves with separated by lines. It did only look for spaces, and since there is no spaces between two moves, it failed. I wonder why it worked for other Arimaa game...
I am not going to update the viewer with that fix until you, Fritzlein, say that you have saved your annotations as external file. I will commit it to bitbucket though.
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clojure
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #93 on: Oct 24th, 2010, 1:32pm » |
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That works with the fixed version (that replaces \n with " ").
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Fritzlein
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #94 on: Oct 24th, 2010, 1:37pm » |
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on Oct 24th, 2010, 1:30pm, clojure wrote:| The problem with importing from Arimaa.com was with the handling of moves with separated by lines. It did only look for spaces, and since there is no spaces between two moves, it failed. I wonder why it worked for other Arimaa game... |
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Wow, you are fast. I will guess the reason it worked for the games you imported is that Omar has re-implemented the move list generation several times, not exactly the same, so I was using a different gameroom move list than you were.
Anyway the latest little glitch is from export-import, not the game room. The only outside influence is Notepad, but I don't have wordwrap on, so that shouldn't have caused a problem. (By the way, I am using Chrome on Windows 7 Home Premium, by the way, if that matters.)
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| « Last Edit: Oct 24th, 2010, 1:40pm by Fritzlein » |
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clojure
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #95 on: Oct 24th, 2010, 1:38pm » |
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on Oct 24th, 2010, 1:28pm, Fritzlein wrote:
I turned off the shadowing at first, thinking it was a distraction, but as I imagine talking through a position I can see how useful it will be to see both the current situation and what is about to happen. The shadowing is back on; a great feature.
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Yeah, I find it useful too, but the graphics design might be more clear or different.
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I am also experimenting with square highlighting. Tentatively I am using yellow for danger and blue for safety, although I think green for safety might be more intuitive. Are the highlight colors you chose special? Also, is it impossible to highlight a trap?
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At the moment, traps are highlighted logically but not shown properly. I might change that.
Also there's no reasons for the colors. The marking system is not thought out with specific use cases in mind. There could also be arrows etc. Go ahead and suggest for later versions. 
Just say and I will add the fixed version. Then that import should work. But you have to have all annotations saved to elsewhere just to be sure.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 24th, 2010, 1:47pm by clojure » |
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clojure
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #96 on: Oct 24th, 2010, 1:45pm » |
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Well, I went ahead and put the fixed version. Force refresh the page (ctrl+R) and it should work. (I have the same environment atm also).
EDIT: Yeah. The problem is not with Arimaa.com different lists but my blind assumption. I'm not sure exactly how the copy-pasting from/to textarea/notepad affects the text, but now the translator should be aware of line ends. I might need to test this in Linux, too.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 24th, 2010, 1:49pm by clojure » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #97 on: Oct 24th, 2010, 2:15pm » |
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on Oct 24th, 2010, 1:45pm, clojure wrote:| Well, I went ahead and put the fixed version. Force refresh the page (ctrl+R) and it should work. |
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I confirmed the re-import now works, thanks!
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clojure
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #98 on: Oct 24th, 2010, 2:23pm » |
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It's very good practice to confirm. Now I can relax a bit Thanks!
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Fritzlein
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #99 on: Oct 25th, 2010, 1:35am » |
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I am enjoying entering comments and variations in preparation for my presentation. Two feature requests have occurred to me. Neither is essential in any time frame, never mind in time for the festival, but I thought I would record them here before I forget.
1) Sometimes when I get lost in a maze of variations, I simply want to pop back out to the game, get my bearings, and move on. For this purpose a "collapse all" button would be nice.
2) I love the ability to re-order sub-variations; a very nice extension of that would be to swap the top sub-variation with the main line. I understand this is a serious issue notationally, because elements in brackets would have to get unpacked into the main line whereas the main line would have to be properly bracketed and tucked in. The feature is particularly useful to analysis, though, when one often changes one's mind as to which move is best. Even for the workshop, where I am obviously going to leave the actual game moves as the main line, I have had the desire to promote a move from a sub-sub-variation into the main sub-variation, which I can't presently do without deleting and re-entering moves.
As I say, these are just notes for future reference rather than immediate feature requests. So far I find I have everything I need for the festival and more!
Oh, there is a real bug too, albeit a small one: deleting a position can apparently orphan moves below it in the variation, causing strange behavior from the viewer. Logically deletes should be cascading, although that is a dangerous power to give the user. 
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| « Last Edit: Oct 25th, 2010, 1:43am by Fritzlein » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #100 on: Oct 25th, 2010, 2:33am » |
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Did I mention yet that the ability to annotate a game this way is freakin' awesome? I want to start another Mob game right now, simply because there is such a vastly better way to swap analysis than ever before. I want the entire library of Arimaa puzzles converted to and integrated with the new viewer because the current puzzles only can show the main line of the solution with vague comments about what happens against other defenses. I want this tool integrated into the current "game comments" space to make it ten times easier to point out missed moves and alternate variations. And forget the bother of making analysis videos; the annotated tree of variations from a game itself is a sufficient contribution to the community, without the hassle of MotionBox or Vimeo or whatever. Sure, videos are great for people on the fringe of the community, but what you have provided is what serious players need. I am fired up by the potential for your development to take the communally available Arimaa analysis to a higher level.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #101 on: Oct 25th, 2010, 2:38am » |
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I notice that chessandgo hasn't commented in this thread yet. When he tries this out for the first time, he is going to gush his mush. He wanted to do analysis so badly he was building trees by hand, which I can assure you is a pain in the tuckus. The only drawback I see here is that serious students of the game (like him) will now pull even further ahead because their studying just got easier.
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clojure
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #102 on: Oct 25th, 2010, 6:32am » |
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on Oct 25th, 2010, 1:35am, Fritzlein wrote:I am enjoying entering comments and variations in preparation for my presentation.
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Thank you for the kind words
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Two feature requests have occurred to me.
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You can pour any ideas here. Or create account to Bitbucket and add an issue.
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1) Sometimes when I get lost in a maze of variations, I simply want to pop back out to the game, get my bearings, and move on. For this purpose a "collapse all" button would be nice.
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Nice low-hanging fruit.
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2) to swap the top sub-variation with the main line. I understand this is a serious issue notationally, because elements in brackets would have to get unpacked into the main line whereas the main line would have to be properly bracketed and tucked in.
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There is an issue for this in Bitbucket http://bitbucket.org/egaga/arimaa-game-viewer/issue/17/variation-promoti ng-into-main-line-move
I previously considered this and put a "won't fix" resolution until it is requested fiercely enough.
I actually don't understand how you would like it to work for normal game. Maybe you explained that but I don't get it. I mean that visually the gametree would be short as collapsed. Wouldn't it feel weird? I find this unintuitive for user, since I need to somehow annotate also what is the main move.
All issues that I have with this is mainly with the idea, not with implementation (although it needs some work).
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The feature is particularly useful to analysis, though, when one often changes one's mind as to which move is best.
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In this case it is much more useful.
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Oh, there is a real bug too, albeit a small one: deleting a position can apparently orphan moves below it in the variation, causing strange behavior from the viewer.
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Could you provide me a minimal notation that I can produce this error with? I failed to get this problem.
Quote:| Logically deletes should be cascading, although that is a dangerous power to give the user. |
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The intented behavior is this. Some bug has crept in.
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clojure
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #103 on: Oct 25th, 2010, 6:43am » |
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on Oct 25th, 2010, 2:33am, Fritzlein wrote:Did I mention yet that the ability to annotate a game this way is freakin' awesome?
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These comments are one of the reasons I have the motivation to get boring stuff done.
Quote:| I am fired up by the potential for your development to take the communally available Arimaa analysis to a higher level. |
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In lfe in general, I feel that there is lots of possibilities to improve our understanding by providing tools. Especially in education I considered starting making visual interactive software but it seems I have some controversial thoughts about education and am a bit cynical in general how it would work out with all things considered.
But in Arimaa context, I would be really glad if this tool helps you understand the game better and share the knowledge. Which brings me the topic that soon we should create a service for browsing and adding FAN'ned games. That would help Mob games also but provide the platform for growing the base knowledge.
One thing that I should think soon is about how I can enhance the support for markings, providing variety of them and way to customize the visual view. (e.g. you wanted red and green, but I think color blindness is too common to make them default).
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RonWeasley
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Re: Game viewer / analysis tool
« Reply #104 on: Oct 25th, 2010, 8:25am » |
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on Oct 25th, 2010, 2:33am, Fritzlein wrote:| Did I mention yet that the ability to annotate a game this way is freakin' awesome? I want to start another Mob game right now, simply because there is such a vastly better way to swap analysis than ever before. |
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During your previous post I immediately thought about The Mob. This new ability could make it much easier to collaborate. It may make the game harder for The One, but it seems like the experience will be more fun for The Mob. It may help The Mob reach consensus more easily, which makes things more fun for The Moderator.
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