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   Author  Topic: Going Global  (Read 18258 times)
UruramTururam
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Re: Going Global
« Reply #45 on: Feb 25th, 2011, 6:39am »
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on Feb 25th, 2011, 6:18am, chessandgo wrote:

- "L'Arimaa"; I think we could just say "Arimaa". I know it's "les échecs, le go, le monopoly" but I think with recent(?) english-named games we often go without the déterminant

 
Arimaa is hardly English...
 
And I guess "L'Arimaa" like "Le go" adds sam kind of reverence to the name! Grin
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Re: Going Global
« Reply #46 on: Feb 25th, 2011, 8:30am »
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on Feb 25th, 2011, 6:39am, UruramTururam wrote:

 
Arimaa is hardly English...
 
And I guess "L'Arimaa" like "Le go" adds sam kind of reverence to the name! Grin

 
True Smiley Vague English-speaking origins I should have said, perhaps, does that fit better? Smiley
 
I'm not sure about the "reverence explanation" (but let me write a smiley in response Smiley and I don't think my explanation of "recent" is correct either), I suppose it's just the way it is Smiley
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chessandgo
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Re: Going Global
« Reply #47 on: Feb 25th, 2011, 8:31am »
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Ok, I gave it a go while playing the 5mn vid mute, and it basically fits, I just had to rush a few times, probably because I started at the wrong times.
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megajester
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Re: Going Global
« Reply #48 on: Feb 25th, 2011, 9:31am »
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I think what he means by "reverence" is that we want Arimaa to have the same image as the most classic and revered games, not the image of a modern commercial board game. Therefore I would recommend that as a general rule the word be used in any language according to the same grammatical rules (gender, apostrophes for suffixes, maybe plurals, etc) as if it were the word "chess", except for cases where it would be regarded as incorrect. So in the case of French, masculine and with the definite article.
 
@Omar, languages can differ in how they treat capital letters. Do you have any specific instructions as to whether Arimaa should be capitalised or not?
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chessandgo
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Re: Going Global
« Reply #49 on: Feb 25th, 2011, 10:12am »
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I understand what reverence means, and I wanted to convey that I don't think the use of "the" in front of a strategy game in French has anything to do with reverence. There are examples of both important and trivial with both "the" and "non the" cases. For example, you say:
 
- jouer à la marelle (child game, the)
- jouer à 1-2-3-Soleil (child game, non the)
- jouer aux échecs (revered game, the (and plural))
- jouer à question pour un champion (reference knowledge TV show, non the)
 
Ok, you guys are going to tell me it's a TV game so it's crap. Hmmm. Well, after mouthing the weird sounding "Jouer à l'Arimaa" several times, I suppose I could get used to it Smiley
 
 
My best guess is that "the or not the" is a matter of use, but I'm deferring to anyone who has a better knowledge of the French language Smiley
 
And in French we almost never capitalize compared to you English-speakers, so "Arimaa" might be correct under a commercial meaning, while "arimaa" would be more standard (but we won't go for it I suppose).
« Last Edit: Feb 25th, 2011, 10:22am by chessandgo » IP Logged

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Re: Going Global
« Reply #50 on: Feb 25th, 2011, 10:15am »
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on Feb 25th, 2011, 10:12am, chessandgo wrote:
I understand what reverence means, and I wanted to convey that I don't think the use of "the" in front of a strategy game in French has anything to do with reverence. There are examples of both important and trivial with both "the" and "non the" cases. I'd guess it's a matter of use, but I'm deferring to anyone who has a better knowledge of the French language Smiley
 
And in French we almost never capitalize compared to you English-speakers, so "Arimaa" might be correct under a commercial meaning, while "arimaa" would be more standard (but we won't go for it I suppose).

OK, I misunderstood you when you said you weren't sure about the "reverence explanation". Of course, you will know better than us what's best. All I can do is make general recommendations as a translator.
« Last Edit: Feb 25th, 2011, 10:16am by megajester » IP Logged

chessandgo
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Re: Going Global
« Reply #51 on: Feb 25th, 2011, 10:21am »
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on Feb 25th, 2011, 10:15am, megajester wrote:

OK, I misunderstood you when you said you weren't sure about the "reverence explanation". Of course, you will know better than us what's best. All I can do is make general recommendations as a translator.

 
Oh, sorry. I should have said that I'm not sure it was correct. And no, please keep giving us advice, translation is definitely something that you master and that we don't Smiley
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UruramTururam
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Re: Going Global
« Reply #52 on: Feb 25th, 2011, 10:55am »
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on Feb 25th, 2011, 9:31am, megajester wrote:
I think what he means by "reverence" is that we want Arimaa to have the same image as the most classic and revered games, not the image of a modern commercial board game.

 
That's exactly what I meant.  
Sorry; I tend to write unclear sentences even in Polish not to mention English. I won't even try French however I understand it un peu.
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Re: Going Global
« Reply #53 on: Feb 25th, 2011, 11:07am »
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on Feb 25th, 2011, 9:31am, megajester wrote:
Therefore I would recommend that as a general rule the word be used in any language according to the same grammatical rules (gender, apostrophes for suffixes, maybe plurals, etc) as if it were the word "chess", except for cases where it would be regarded as incorrect. So in the case of French, masculine and with the definite article.

 
Heh, heh. Arimaa makes real troubles in Polish because of the double a at the end. In Polish words ending by -a are normally feminine with a few exceptions, but there are no words ending -aa. (Btw. chess is "szachy", non-masculine, plural.) And the grammatic position of the word defines the suffix that is attached to the word or replaces an existing one. For example female genitive usually replaces -a by -y. So what it would be for Arimaa: Arimay, Arimaay, Arimyy, Arimy? Probably the last one, two first are horrible to say, the third is good for a joke. So all the possible forms the word Arimaa could have in Polish would be: Arimaa, Arimy, Arimie, Arimę, Arimą, Arimo, Arim, Arimom, Arimach. Sigh.
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Re: Going Global
« Reply #54 on: Feb 25th, 2011, 11:24am »
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on Feb 25th, 2011, 11:07am, UruramTururam wrote:

 
Heh, heh. Arimaa makes real troubles in Polish because of the double a at the end. In Polish words ending by -a are normally feminine with a few exceptions, but there are no words ending -aa. (Btw. chess is "szachy", non-masculine, plural.) And the grammatic position of the word defines the suffix that is attached to the word or replaces an existing one. For example female genitive usually replaces -a by -y. So what it would be for Arimaa: Arimay, Arimaay, Arimyy, Arimy? Probably the last one, two first are horrible to say, the third is good for a joke. So all the possible forms the word Arimaa could have in Polish would be: Arimaa, Arimy, Arimie, Arimę, Arimą, Arimo, Arim, Arimom, Arimach. Sigh.

Oh goodness. When I made my recommendations I suppose I was too much under the influence of my own language set...
 
It's clearly not going to work to make a single rule that applies for all languages. It's all about purpose. We want Arimaa to be thought of more as a "classic" than a commercial product. So if we have two options, one of which sounds like chess, go etc and the other that sounds like a commercial product, and all other factors are equal (which never happens), I would say go with the first option. But if that option would be considered odd, then it would defeat the object of being a respectable game, and it would probably be better to go with the second option...
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Re: Going Global
« Reply #55 on: Feb 25th, 2011, 1:34pm »
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on Feb 25th, 2011, 11:07am, UruramTururam wrote:

 
Heh, heh. Arimaa makes real troubles in Polish because of the double a at the end. In Polish words ending by -a are normally feminine with a few exceptions, but there are no words ending -aa. (Btw. chess is "szachy", non-masculine, plural.) And the grammatic position of the word defines the suffix that is attached to the word or replaces an existing one. For example female genitive usually replaces -a by -y. So what it would be for Arimaa: Arimay, Arimaay, Arimyy, Arimy? Probably the last one, two first are horrible to say, the third is good for a joke. So all the possible forms the word Arimaa could have in Polish would be: Arimaa, Arimy, Arimie, Arimę, Arimą, Arimo, Arim, Arimom, Arimach. Sigh.

 
Polish is not too different from Czech. ... we have chosen to use Arimaa as foreign (imune to declinations) word.
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Re: Going Global
« Reply #56 on: Feb 25th, 2011, 2:11pm »
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You were totally clear, and your French is much better than my Polish Smiley
 
I'm looking forward to hearing opinion from my French-speaking fellows. I think it could very easily be just in my mind that the "the" issue is disconnected from respectability, after all we use it with chess, go and shogi. I suppose using Arimaa only in an english-speaking context has a lot to do with my finding * l'Arimaa * weird.
 
BTW: what's the joke with arimyy? Smiley
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UruramTururam
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Re: Going Global
« Reply #57 on: Feb 25th, 2011, 3:12pm »
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on Feb 25th, 2011, 1:34pm, Hippo wrote:

 
Polish is not too different from Czech. ... we have chosen to use Arimaa as foreign (imune to declinations) word.

 
Yup, I understand Czech if i think in old Polish and one of my Czech friends told me that he understands Polish thinking in old Czech - some time ago the languages were even closer.
 
For declination-proof words Polish has strong tendency to incorporate foreign words and change them according to the Polish grammar. For example a few years ago "pendrive" was a foreign declination-immune word, two years ago it was not immune, and nowdays we tend to have "pendrajw" with all polish declinations and ortography (Polish has no v). Thus even if "Arimaa" is declared as an unchangeable word, first in spoken language then in written it will gain declination. I think there's no need to fight windmills here...
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Re: Going Global
« Reply #58 on: Feb 25th, 2011, 3:20pm »
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on Feb 25th, 2011, 2:11pm, chessandgo wrote:

BTW: what's the joke with arimyy? Smiley

 
Well, it's hard to explain.
It's like this: first of all a word ending at -aa looks weird for a Pole, yet a word with -yy at the end is twice as weird.  Secondly - the Polish grammar never double-change the word... Imagine that in French arises a situation where instead of saying "Pas du tout" you are forced to say "Pas du toutout".
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Re: Going Global
« Reply #59 on: Feb 25th, 2011, 4:29pm »
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I got it, there are some situations where do things like that in French, it's kind of a joke each time you say it indeed Smiley
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