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Janzert
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Unrating timedout tournament game
« on: Feb 16th, 2015, 5:52pm »
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In the round 6 Tuks vs jdb game, Tuks timed out due to local tech issues. There is no question about  the result standing for the tournament, but both players have requested that the game be unrated. My understanding is that this could not be done through the usual method on account of it being an event game. Unrating the game will have no effect on the tournament itself.
 
Does anyone have any opinions on urating it?
 
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Fritzlein
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Re: Unrating timedout tournament game
« Reply #1 on: Feb 16th, 2015, 6:21pm »
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Note that although it has no effect on this tournament whether the game is rated or unrated, it will have an effect on the seeding of future tournaments if the game is included or excluded from WHRE and WHRH ratings.  My instinct would be that unrating the game is unfair to the winner jdb, as it would lower his future seeding.  However, since jdb has requested that the game be unrated, I would honor the request, because the timeout is in no way a reflection of poor performance by Tuks.
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PotatoeTheCat
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Re: Unrating timedout tournament game
« Reply #2 on: Feb 17th, 2015, 9:12am »
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This situation is analogous to that in "over the board" chess in which a player is unable to continue (eg due to illness, family emergency).  In that situation, whether the game counts as rated would depend upon whether the game has actually started.  
This actually happened to me once at a club game: my opponent arrived for the game, but left without making any move, as his wife had just phoned to say their house had been burgled!  The game was awarded to our team, but was not counted as rated.  If my opponent had even made one move, he would have suffered a loss of rating points as well as his loss of personal property.
The Tuks v jdb game was already underway, so (by analogy) should count as rated.
Jdb has specified that he is happy to waiver his right to the rating points on this occasion.  This is sporting of him.  But one wonders what his view might have been if he had been clearly ahead in the position when Tuks lost connectivity.
To save future TCs the heart-ache of adjudicating such cases, I suggest a simple rule is a good rule.  IMHO, the game should still count as rated.
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supersamu
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Re: Unrating timedout tournament game
« Reply #3 on: Feb 17th, 2015, 10:08am »
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If the game meets the criteria that all other games meet that can be unrated (A bot decides whether the disadvantage was too big), then I don't see the problem with unrating it.
 
I suppose there should be different measures deciding on whether a HvH game and an event HvH game should be unrated (Not being counted towards that respective rating), but that is a different matter.
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Janzert
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Re: Unrating timedout tournament game
« Reply #4 on: Feb 17th, 2015, 11:02am »
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on Feb 17th, 2015, 10:08am, supersamu wrote:
I suppose there should be different measures deciding on whether a HvH game and an event HvH game should be unrated (Not being counted towards that respective rating), but that is a different matter.

 
I'm confused, isn't that exactly the question here? Or do you mean the game rating flag shouldn't be used when deciding to include a game in WHR-E?
 
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supersamu
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Re: Unrating timedout tournament game
« Reply #5 on: Feb 17th, 2015, 11:19am »
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I didn't realize we were supposed to discuss the position of the game at the moment of the timeout, and then decide whether we should unrate it or not. I thought we were discussing if the players are allowed to  enter the normal process of unrating a game if it is an event game.
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Janzert
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Re: Unrating timedout tournament game
« Reply #6 on: Feb 17th, 2015, 2:17pm »
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I think maybe we're talking past each other or at least I'm not understanding your posts. My feeling at least is one of confusion. :/
 
My understanding is that the general consensus is the final state of the specific game in question is unclear and would, if it had not been an event game, have most likely been eligible to unrate in the regular mostly automated process.
 
So while the specific question is, should this game be unrated? The answer to that seems to depend pretty much solely on the more general, when or if event games should be unrated?
 
After reading Potatoe's comment above and reading the USCF rules, which match Potatoe's description, I wonder if Omar didn't purposefully follow that example, i.e. forfeits are automatically unrated and event games cannot be unrated. But I'm not sure it's appropriate to straight up apply those mostly meant for in person game rules to these over the internet games.
 
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Re: Unrating timedout tournament game
« Reply #7 on: Feb 17th, 2015, 3:16pm »
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Tuks from rescheduling thread:
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If you think it is beyond the tournament jurisdiction then the power should be give back to the two players participating in the match as it is in every other rated game.

 
I think that is a conclusion that could be arrived at, and I would be happy with it.
 
Quote:
Not sure why this has to become a discussion; the only reason this has been brought up is because neither I or Jdb can manually do it ourselves.

 
Let me review the position I'm in regarding this a little bit. The decision is outside the purview of the tournament, therefore outside any authority I may have as tournament director. The automatic system in place, whether for reasons really thought about in advance or not, won't allow it. So it gets pushed to the gameroom moderator role to decide whether action should be taken.
 
So far as I'm aware there has never been a statement by Omar, or any precedent decision by anyone, to direct a gameroom moderator what the course of action should be. Which brings it down to trying to determine what the community consensus is.
 
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Re: Unrating timedout tournament game
« Reply #8 on: Feb 17th, 2015, 3:20pm »
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My memory is that Omar definitely wanted event games to always be rated.  I believe this applied not only to timeouts but also to forfeits, i.e. the fact that event forfeits current aren't rated would be an implementation bug in his eyes .  I don't recall his reasoning.  One could ask him how he wants it to be and why.
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Re: Unrating timedout tournament game
« Reply #9 on: Feb 17th, 2015, 11:10pm »
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Last year the somewhat similar rabbits-Thiagor game was unrated.
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Janzert
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Re: Unrating timedout tournament game
« Reply #10 on: Feb 17th, 2015, 11:17pm »
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That just further confuses me, since it appears that rabbits was able to unrate it using the normal automated method. I believe that method is now telling jdb it can't be used for event games.
 
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PotatoeTheCat
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Re: Unrating timedout tournament game
« Reply #11 on: Feb 19th, 2015, 1:01pm »
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Some further thoughts on this subject.....
 
Speaking as a newcomer, Arimaa.com appears to me to be on on the "lenient side" in allowing (in certain situations) the unrating of games.  The two chess websites I am most familiar with (Playchess and ICC) do not allow this practice.  
 
ICC does allow players to resume a game after a dis-connection.  (The game becomes "adjourned" and the players get an option to resume when both are back on-line.)  Clearly this practice has been subject to abuse - too many players were "disconnecting" immediately after a blunder - and there is now a bot which adjudicates position on-demand after a suspicious disconnect.  ICC also allows players to set an extra-stringent option whereby any server disconnect is an automatic loss (even if the player re-connects with sufficient time on their clock).
 
81dojo (shogi) also does not allow unrating of games, and for an extra twist of severity awards a mandatory loss if a player attempts to enter an illegal move.
 
This issue arises in other sports which support rankings/ratings.  In tennis, for example, in addition to losing rating points for retirement during a game, players also lose rating points for forfeits/ non-participation (even if no fault of the player concerned).
 
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/Rankings-FAQ.aspx#injury
 
The practice of allowing unrating of games is not (I would contend) a feature of internet vrs over-the-board play, but is rather cultural: arising from the relatively small number of arimaa players, and the "village community" feel of the website.  
Playchess, by comparison has 300,000 registered users - typically +2000 on line at any given time - players do not typically recognize each other: so a mutual arbitration approach is simply not going to work.
 
Obviously we are hoping that the Arimaa community is going to grow.  Given that, my suggestion is that the community moves to adopt the practices associated with larger gaming communities.
 
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