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        Arimaa >> Site Discussion >> Delay for spectators
        
(Message started by: Nombril on Jun 24^th, 2010, 5:41pm)

Title: Delay for spectators
Post by Nombril on Jun 24^th, 2010, 5:41pm

This is a summary from a different thread... I thought this might be a better place to continue this discussion. Here is the suggestion:

on 06/20/10 at 16:10:28, ocmiente wrote:

I figured that if the spectators could only view a game after a 5 minute delay or something, that might be enough to get around this problem - but I also figure that someone has already recommended that and there's a reason why that won't work...

Implementation (already done, thanks Omar!):

on 06/21/10 at 11:31:38, omar wrote:

Thinking about this a bit more I guess if I just throw out the most recent two move in the move list for spectators, that would be easiest way to implement it and work regardless of the time controls for the game.

One concern, phrased a few different ways:

on 06/21/10 at 16:41:51, FireBorn wrote:

My only concern with the move-delay is it ruins the timing of the game, and thus moves that would have warranted deep analysis/commentary might be passed quickly.

Maybe a solution would be to have the moves displayed in real time with a delay but pause the display of new moves if showing a move would violate the move-delay rule.

I think this would end up with the game being delayed by the amount of time it took to make the longest move.

on 06/24/10 at 16:18:30, FireBorn wrote:

Does anyone else have a problem with the pacing of the game being screwed up by a move-delay? Like, what if a move that took a player 2 minutes went by quickly because his next move took 15 seconds. To an observer, the 2 minute move would take 15 seconds, wouldn't it?

Personally, I think this is the best "quick" fix. For longer term consideration, I'm wondering what other on-line games that have more money riding on the outcome do for security. (For example, preventing someone from using a computer to calculate odds and/or count cards in on-line poker?)

Title: Re: Delay for spectators
Post by knarl on Jun 24^th, 2010, 7:26pm

So... with postal games, will the delay mean that the postal mixer results will be delayed by about 4 days, and possibly even months, since 4 ply could take months? Will players be able to comment the games right away?

Or will the delay disappear once the game ends? That would be weird because to an observer, the last 4 ply would be instantaneous.

At other speeds, I just assume players will have to wait a few minutes to comment games and be diciplined enough not to spoil the result for any observers watching their game?

Cheers,
knarl.

Title: Re: Delay for spectators
Post by omar on Jun 24^th, 2010, 8:45pm

I was able to get the delay implemented today.

For event games that are rated the spectators will see the game delayed by 2 turns (or 4 ply). So if the game is currently at 12g the spectators will see the game being at 10g. When a game ends the delay stops and all moves are immediately shown. This may cause the game window to appear as it stopped updating, but you have to hit the 'Show' button to see the last few moves when the game ends.

As FireBorn mentioned, the strange thing of doing it this way is that the timers displayed are for the current move and not the delayed move. So if a player actually used 1 minute on 10g and 30 seconds on 12g, to the spectators it will appear as if move 10g was made in 30 seconds. The good thing about this is that if a player is about to lose on time, the spectators will know.

As Nombril mentioned this was the easiest quick fix. It did not require any changes in the game clients and only changes on the serve.

Title: Re: Delay for spectators
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 24^th, 2010, 8:54pm

I don't have a problem with the moves appearing to the spectators spaced differently than they were spaced for the players. I have already noticed whenever I am commentating a game that the players don't take longer when I have more to say about a position and don't move more quickly when I have less to say. The commentator has some leeway to backtrack and talk about what happened in the past, but mostly he has to just swallow whatever he wanted to say and talk about the live position. I doubt this will feel very different.

I'm happy that the current clocks will display, so that we will still have the drama of seeing whenever a near-timeout occurs.

For postal games, it makes sense for the display to be delayed by four days if that how long four ply is taking. I've had several awkward moments in chat with people who wanted to discuss ongoing postal games, ignoring that it might give an unfair advantage to one or the other of the players involved. If the displayed position is two moves old, one can comment relatively freely on the stale position. That's a big plus.

I'm glad that after a game is over, the final moves are viewable instantaneously and the players are able to comment immediately. No harm can accrue from spectators talking about the game after it is over. The "end rush", or whatever you want to call it, will take some getting used to, particularly when the end was not expected, but it won't be an entirely new experience because bot games have always ended in a big rush when both bots see forced goal. I am somewhat used to it from that context. Sometimes when one player has a big advantage, not having to endure the waiting of the final two moves will be a positive bonus, because finishing off a win when there is no chance of losing is the most boring part of the game in my book, and scarcely worthy of commentary anyway.

Thanks, Omar, for getting this fix in place so fast. I am now itching to commentate some games in AWL Round 6 just to see how it feels.

Title: Re: Delay for spectators
Post by Janzert on Jun 24^th, 2010, 11:19pm

heh, just went to check OpFor's postal games and thought I was going crazy 'cause I was sure I had seen more moves played already.

I'm rather surprised to see such a strong reaction from the community after one incident. Don't all the chess and go servers out there have the same problem? Not sure I'll like the delay but I'll probably get used to it.

Janzert

Title: Re: Delay for spectators
Post by rbarreira on Jun 24^th, 2010, 11:31pm

on 06/24/10 at 23:19:12, Janzert wrote:

One big difference is that I don't think there any world-champion or $10,000 contests in online chess. But for Arimaa, all the important playing is done online.

Title: Re: Delay for spectators
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 25^th, 2010, 1:14am

on 06/24/10 at 23:19:12, Janzert wrote:

Don't all the chess and go servers out there have the same problem?

I don't think I have ever heard live commentary of an on-line chess game. Of course, I have heard live on-line commentary of a face-to-face chess game, but in that case there is no question of the players benefiting from the commentary. Chess servers spend a lot of time worrying about who is getting computer assistance; maybe some day it will be an equal issue for Arimaa servers.

Title: Re: Delay for spectators
Post by megajester on Jun 25^th, 2010, 2:43am

Thanks a lot Omar.

Although Omar's fix will be good for now, I would still recommend delaying each move by a set time. Fritz is right that in general there's not a whole lot of difference in time used between moves, but this changes when the players get low on time. Personally think it would contribute to the atmosphere if we knew we were seeing the moves at the exact same speed they were played. Like taping a sports game and watching it later, we can still feel the players' emotion and excitement even though it was 5 minutes ago for them. In the past, commentators could often be heard saying "so-and-so's gone into a deep think", for example. With the present fix, we lose this dimension of the commentary somewhat.

If we had a fixed time delay, I think we would forget about it quite quickly because it wouldn't feel any different to the way it was before. But with the present solution we will always be reminded of the delay when complex moves update quickly and relatively obvious moves take ages to come through, and when we get to the end and suddenly "bang!" the last moves update.

Title: Re: Delay for spectators
Post by rbarreira on Jun 25^th, 2010, 3:45am

If it isn't too hard, maybe one day Omar will implement the delay feature based on move time rather than move number.

Title: Re: Delay for spectators
Post by FireBorn on Jun 25^th, 2010, 10:15am

Thanks for implementing this, Omar. And good points, Fritzlein. It doesn't seem too bad the way you explain it, but we'll have to test it out to see. I still think my hybrid solution is best, but if Omar likes it he can implement it at his own leisure since I know it would be a lot of work and the current delay probably works fine for now.

Title: Re: Delay for spectators
Post by Hippo on Jun 25^th, 2010, 4:36pm

I don't agree the last 2 turns shown at once would be always beneficial. In my game with novacat we were fighting to the last move so 2 turns before the end spectators would be prepared for us to come to the chatroom, but they would be absolutely unsure how the game ended. So the post game chat in the game window would give enough time to spectators ... and may be it would be better if the moves would be delayed to "average turn time".

I would like the "growing constant delay". We should be late at least maximal encountered length of 2+2 turns. And after the game is finished, the replay could continue with this delay.
I understand that this would need some programming, but it seems to me be the most natural. (Delay time could be displayed as well). It would be nice if the players will be informed when the game ended for spectators not to visit the chatroom prematurely :).

Title: Re: Delay for spectators
Post by omar on Jun 26^th, 2010, 7:22am

Janzert, sorry about the impact of this on viewing your bot's postal games.

I am interested to see how this works out. Maybe we can arrange an event game next weekend with commentary to try it out. Karl, would you be able to give commentary sometime next weekend.

megajester, with a time delay the position the spectators see could catch up with the current position the players have. But it would depend on the time delay we chose and it could be chosen to be long enough that this would not likely happen. This would be a bit tricky to implement though.

Title: Re: Delay for spectators
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 26^th, 2010, 4:34pm

on 06/26/10 at 07:22:43, omar wrote:

I am interested to see how this works out. Maybe we can arrange an event game next weekend with commentary to try it out. Karl, would you be able to give commentary sometime next weekend.

Yes, I'm available and eager. I hope some game is scheduled at a good time for me. This is the sort of thing where we all have intuitions about how it will work out, but we really need to experience it to know. Spectating might be lame now, or it might be exactly as fun as before, or anywhere in between. We just have to try it to see.

Title: Re: Delay for spectators
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 29^th, 2010, 9:58pm

The first two AWL Round 6 games are Thursday night for me, and I have Thursday night ultimate so I can't make it. Perhaps someone else will volunteer to commentate in TeamSpeak? In any event I can make it for woh vs. Korhil Saturday morning, so that will be my first chance to check out the spectator delay.

Title: Re: Delay for spectators
Post by knarl on Jun 30^th, 2010, 4:47am

I just spectated (that's not a word, but I'm using it) a game between BlueScreenError and bot_Bomb2005Blitz to check out the delay.

Towards the end, it went all wacky. The move (green highlight on the clock) changed back and forth a few times without any pieces moving so I thought it must have finished and reverted the delay, but then it continued a few moves, then played the music and told me who won, then I could show the final moves =S.

Cheers,
knarl.

Title: Re: Delay for spectators
Post by omar on Jul 1^st, 2010, 6:31am

on 06/30/10 at 04:47:14, knarl wrote:

I just spectated (that's not a word, but I'm using it) a game between BlueScreenError and bot_Bomb2005Blitz to check out the delay.

Was this setup as an event game? The delay should only be happening for event games and not regular gameroom games.

Title: Re: Delay for spectators
Post by knarl on Jul 1^st, 2010, 10:35pm

OK, then that's even more strange if the delay is only for event games.

Since then, I've viewed another game that did a similar thing, except I didn't stay for the end of the game, but it did the thing where the green clock highlight and countdown switched back and forth with no pieces moving.

I was using the javascript client both times if that is relevant.

Cheers,
knarl.

Title: Re: Delay for spectators
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 2^nd, 2010, 11:23pm

on 06/29/10 at 21:58:38, Fritzlein wrote:

In any event I can make it for woh vs. Korhil Saturday morning, so that will be my first chance to check out the spectator delay.

Apparently woh vs. Korhil was moved to a new time when I wasn't paying attention, so I missed it. Also apparently (from the chat room comments) the spectator delay is only one ply instead of four ply for people who are watching a game from the beginning. This bug obviously needs to be fixed before the delay has it intended impact.

Title: Re: Delay for spectators
Post by Hippo on Jul 3^rd, 2010, 2:03am

Actually the bug's behaviour is following: when you start watching in halfturn h, you are delayed min(h,4) halfturns. I was late one halfturn, arimabuff was on time. After I have reloaded the client at 4g I was delayed 4 halfturns as expected but Arimabuff didn't want to go back to history ...

Title: Re: Delay for spectators
Post by omar on Jul 10^th, 2010, 8:50pm

I rolled back this change. It was causing some unexplainable bugs in other places. I'll add it again once I figure out what's causing the bug.

Title: Re: Delay for spectators
Post by omar on Jul 29^th, 2010, 12:19pm

I've turned on the delay for spectators again for rated event games. Please post here if you notice any problems.

Title: Re: Delay for spectators
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 29^th, 2010, 7:00pm

on 07/29/10 at 12:19:37, omar wrote:

I've turned on the delay for spectators again for rated event games. Please post here if you notice any problems.

I experienced one artifact of the rollout: when I opened my Postal Mixer game against woh, it showed me the position from two moves ago. I had to log on to the game room to open the game and play my move.

Title: Re: Delay for spectators
Post by omar on Jul 30^th, 2010, 9:17am

on 07/29/10 at 19:00:13, Fritzlein wrote:

I just tried this while logged out of the gameroom, but the link in the email seems to be working OK for me. Maybe the client version makes a difference; I was using the JavaScript version.

Tried it with a the client set to Flash V2 HTTP. Actually when you are logged out, it defaults to using the JavaScript client. So I am not being able to reproduce this. Anyone else seeing this?