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Topic: Ideal time control proportions (Read 5400 times) |
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99of9
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Re: Ideal time control proportions
« Reply #30 on: Dec 15th, 2005, 12:47am » |
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on Dec 14th, 2005, 11:45pm, Fritzlein wrote:| I wouldn't want to play a game with a six-hour starting reserve, knowing that I might have to wait an hour for your move if you went to eat lunch. |
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I'd probably give you a heads up  , then you could fit in an extra game of lightning!
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99of9
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Re: Ideal time control proportions
« Reply #31 on: Dec 15th, 2005, 12:54am » |
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on Dec 14th, 2005, 11:45pm, Fritzlein wrote:But not everyone wants the same things I want, so I should just shut up. Anyone who will actually use a long time control can make the case for it being included in the lobby, and I will make no objection.  |
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I personally think it would be great if we could have the option to type in weird and wonderful time controls of our own construction.
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| « Last Edit: Dec 15th, 2005, 12:55am by 99of9 » |
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PMertens
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Re: Ideal time control proportions
« Reply #32 on: Dec 15th, 2005, 2:41am » |
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on Dec 15th, 2005, 12:54am, 99of9 wrote:
I personally think it would be great if we could have the option to type in weird and wonderful time controls of our own construction. |
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That might indeed be the best solution.
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Ryan_Cable
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Re: Ideal time control proportions
« Reply #33 on: Dec 15th, 2005, 5:23am » |
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on Dec 14th, 2005, 12:56pm, omar wrote:| So after the game time expires the players no longer get the time per move and can only use up the time they have in reserve, right? |
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Exactly.
on Dec 14th, 2005, 12:56pm, omar wrote:| I think this is an interesting possibility. But keep in mind that the real purpose of the G parameter is to allow tournament organizers to be able to fix a definite time on how long the game will take, due to practical considerations. For example people might have to catch a plane or have an important appointment and so the game must finish in 5 hours. If after the G parameter expires and there is a lot of time in reserve it could become a problem. Of course if that is expected than the G paramter could be set to a lower value; but might involve some guess work. |
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If G is given in terms of time, you are right; the game length would be mathematically unbounded. The faster people played the more increments they would get before G is reached and thus the greater reserves they would build up. However, if the G parameter is given in terms of moves then there is a strict upper bound on how long the game could last:
Max length = 2*(G*M+R)
Thus we have bounded the time a game can take, but the number of moves the game could last remains mathematically unbounded (unless we add some workaround for infinite move draws). Additionally, any game that lasts g<=G moves will take at most:
Length = 2*(g*M+R)
Thus for the two likely WC times from my list we get:
1:30/9:00/90/0/125t/6 (max = 6h33m, 45 move max = 2h33m, 90 move max = 4h48m)
2:00/12:00/75/0/125t/8 (max = 8h44m, 45 move max = 3h24m, 90 move max = 6h24)
If those max times seem too long we could decrease G to 90t, and 95%+ of games would still not run out of increments. I picked 125t just to make sure that people don't have to adjust their time management for the possibility of running out of increments unless they are already in a record length game.
on Dec 14th, 2005, 1:52pm, Fritzlein wrote:| From my experience with 2-minute games, I definitely don't think a 5-minute limit per move makes the reserve pointless. An "I'm in trouble" pace of thinking, where I take twice as long on every move, is still extremely useful. Obviously it gives me less control than an 8-minute limit per move, but the control I do still have is nothing to sneeze at. I think a 5-minute limit per move is a reasonable concession to the needs of the spectators. |
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I definitely agree that the reserve is useful, and I greatly prefer these new time controls to our current ones even if we keep the T=5m. What I meant is that under this new system, I don't think I would play noticeably better at 2m per move than at 1m30s per move if I must always move in 5m. I am sure everyone is different, but my experience thus far in the WC is roughly:
0s: 10% of moves I had anticipated my opponent's move and chosen my response on his clock
30s: 20%
30s to 1m: 30%
1m to1m30s: 10%
1m30s to 2m30s: 20%
2m30 to 4m: 10%
4m+: 0, 1, or 2 moves per game I have really wanted to think for a very long time and not been able to.
All of that adds up to about 1m10s per move, which leaves 20s for watching the move come in, entering my move into the client, opening a plan window, etc. Yet I consider myself to be a slow player, and I don’t like to play humans at less than 1m per move. The 7m reserve limit often caused me to move slower than I thought was necessary and to move too fast at a few critical points. On the whole, I think I will be quite happy with the new style 1m30s time control. And I am sure, if I got to play at the 2m time control, I would find something useful to do with the extra 30s per move, but by far the thing I would most want to do with them is store them up for a 5m to 8m think.
I understand the desire of the spectators to keep the game moving along and not be bored. About 30 moves into megamau v. Belbo, I wanted to slap Belbo and yell "Attack man; attack already!" Still, I think T=8m is much better than T=5m. It is only 3m extra of boredom for the spectators, and the need to store up time for it means it can only happen a few times per game. But for the players, it could be the difference between winning and loosing or at least the difference between loosing and getting crushed. Still, getting rid of the reserve limit would solve 80%+ of my problems with the time controls, so I would be happy to wait and debate the T factor after the 2007 WC.
on Dec 15th, 2005, 12:54am, 99of9 wrote:| I personally think it would be great if we could have the option to type in weird and wonderful time controls of our own construction. |
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Yes, that would be nice.
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omar
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Re: Ideal time control proportions
« Reply #34 on: Dec 19th, 2005, 12:15am » |
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Ryan, you are right that if the G parameter is specified as max number of turns then if the game continued after reaching this limit using only the reserve time there would be a definite limit on the total time for the game. In fact even if the G parameter is specifed as a max time and there is a max reserve limit (L) there would also be a definite limit on on the total time for the game: G+2*L. The only time it is a problem is if G is specified as a max time and this no limit on max reserve. So an event organizer could always limit the total time for the game if they really want to.
Your proposal should definitely be considered when we discuss what should be done when the game limit parameter (G) is reached.
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omar
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Re: Ideal time control proportions
« Reply #35 on: Dec 19th, 2005, 12:26am » |
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I added another set of experimental time controls to the invite form. I don't know if I really will like them yet; I need to try them out. But they do look clean, elegent and easy to understand.
15s/30m/100/1m/0/1m Blitz
20s/60m/100/2m/0/2m Sprint
25s/90m/100/3m/0/3m Run
30s/120m/100/4m/0/4m Jog
35s/150m/100/5m/0/5m Walk
40s/180m/100/6m/0/6m Stroll
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omar
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Re: Ideal time control proportions
« Reply #36 on: Dec 19th, 2005, 12:28am » |
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on Dec 15th, 2005, 12:54am, 99of9 wrote:
I personally think it would be great if we could have the option to type in weird and wonderful time controls of our own construction. |
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I'll try and add that.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Ideal time control proportions
« Reply #37 on: Dec 19th, 2005, 9:08am » |
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on Dec 19th, 2005, 12:26am, omar wrote:I added another set of experimental time controls to the invite form. I don't know if I really will like them yet; I need to try them out. But they do look clean, elegent and easy to understand.
15s/30m/100/1m/0/1m Blitz
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Er, am I reading that right as a starting reserve of 30 minutes and a maximum reserve of 1 minute?
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omar
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Re: Ideal time control proportions
« Reply #38 on: Dec 21st, 2005, 1:43pm » |
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on Dec 19th, 2005, 9:08am, Fritzlein wrote:
Er, am I reading that right as a starting reserve of 30 minutes and a maximum reserve of 1 minute? |
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Yep, it's allowed according to the specs:
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/learn/matchRules.html
An upper limit (L) can be given for the reserve so that the reserve does not exceed L when more time is added to the reserve. If the initial reserve already exceeds this limit then more time is not added to the reserve until it falls below this limit. The upper limit for the reserve is optional and if not given or set to 0 then it implies that there is no limit on how much time can be added to the reserve.
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omar
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Re: Ideal time control proportions
« Reply #39 on: Dec 22nd, 2005, 6:20pm » |
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I've changed the page to start bots Bomb2005CC and Bomb2005Fast to allow having the bots join a game which is already created. We can use this feature to test out the experimental time controls against these bots.
The way to use this is to first use the "Start Game" button to create a new game with the time control that you want to use. Then from the bot's start up page enter your username in the "Join game against" field and click the "Start Bot" button. You should see the bot join your game.
If you make the game rated, please use the faster time controls with Bomb2005Fast and the slower time controls with Bomb2005CC. Thanks.
Have fun
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Fritzlein
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Re: Ideal time control proportions
« Reply #40 on: Jan 9th, 2006, 12:06am » |
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Now that I've had a chance to try out the experimental time controls of
0:45/4:30/100/0/3.5/5
1:00/6:00/100/0/4.5/5
against Adanac and Robinson, I must say I like them very much. The unlimited reserve brings intelligent time management into play more than it was before, yet being restricted to 5 minutes on any move was no hardship, because I always wanted to move in under four minutes anyway. In each game I temporarily built up a large reserve and needed it all later when I hit a patch of tricky moves. It seems that this type of time control, compared to previous ones, is better for the players and better for the spectators.
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Ryan_Cable
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Re: Ideal time control proportions
« Reply #41 on: Jan 27th, 2006, 1:54am » |
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As I expected, I have come to greatly prefer the new style time controls. I guess the CC bots will be set up with the official CC time control, but I would prefer to have the Blitz and Fast bots setup with 0:15/1:30/100/0/1.5/5 and 0:30/3:00/100/0/2.5/5.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Ideal time control proportions
« Reply #42 on: Jan 27th, 2006, 11:04am » |
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Yes, I'm ready to make the experimental controls standard. They aren't very different, but insofar as they are different, they are simply better. Does anyone not like them?
One problem with retroactively applying the new time controls to old bots is that some of the bots might not be able to handle it. Some don't make use of accumulated reserve, and others won't be aware of the per-move limit. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if none of the bots (not even the 2006CC bots) could handle the new time controls, in which case for them the older, simpler time controls would be best.
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Ryan_Cable
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Re: Ideal time control proportions
« Reply #43 on: Jan 27th, 2006, 2:27pm » |
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Good point, the T=5m would be a big problem for GnoBotCC, and maybe an occasional problem for others. For the Blitz/Fast bots I doubt it will be as much of an issue. I don’t think the T factor is that big an issue for HvB games anyway.
Also, this is a good reason for us to pick our 2007 CC time control relatively early, so the bot developers can prepare.
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99of9
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Re: Ideal time control proportions
« Reply #44 on: Jan 28th, 2006, 7:50am » |
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on Jan 27th, 2006, 2:27pm, Ryan_Cable wrote:| the T=5m would be a big problem for GnoBotCC |
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I think you are right, but I can't recall for sure whether I put in T control. I'll check sometime.
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