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   Author  Topic: Bot Bashing Records Discussion  (Read 10146 times)
aaaa
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Re: Announce Bot Bashing Record - New!
« Reply #15 on: Apr 7th, 2008, 4:17pm »
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It'll be hard to convince me of the fact that it wouldn't be tougher if one could properly handicap oneself by foregoing pieces right at the start of the game.
Take your game 73713 for example. You stopped being forthright in killing off your pieces on 6w to prevent bot_ArimaaScoreP1 from goaling, which makes it dubious to consider two additional rabbits as being part of the handicap.
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Arimabuff
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Re: Announce Bot Bashing Record - New!
« Reply #16 on: Apr 7th, 2008, 4:42pm »
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on Apr 7th, 2008, 4:17pm, aaaa wrote:
It'll be hard to convince me of the fact that it wouldn't be tougher if one could properly handicap oneself by foregoing pieces right at the start of the game.
Take your game 73713 for example. You stopped being forthright in killing off your pieces on 6w to prevent bot_ArimaaScoreP1 from goaling, which makes it dubious to consider two additional rabbits as being part of the handicap.

As I said almost any game that involves multiple killings contains extra steps here and there.
 
Do you wish to invalidate them all?
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99of9
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Re: Announce Bot Bashing Record - New!
« Reply #17 on: Apr 7th, 2008, 4:46pm »
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on Apr 7th, 2008, 4:17pm, aaaa wrote:
It'll be hard to convince me of the fact that it wouldn't be tougher if one could properly handicap oneself by foregoing pieces right at the start of the game.

Sometimes it would be easier to forgo pieces immediately (in the setup), because the opponent wouldn't have had any time to advance rabbits.  But changing the setup interface is a big deal, so I think of it as a slightly different issue to the order and speed in which pieces are suicided.
 
Quote:
I believe the pieces should not only be killed off in as few steps as possible, but also in order from strongest to weakest

Since all the handicap pieces are considered to be a handicap, I view them as a group, and don't think that the order of killing is part of the criteria for it being a handicap.  Therefore I view it as part of a player's strategic prerogative to decide what order to kill the pieces in.
 
The speed with which they are killed is a real issue, because in the most extreme case you could play with all your pieces, and only start suiciding once the game was over.  There are a few possible choices for clear-cut rules here:
 
"Minimum number of steps" seems a little bit difficult to verify to me.  Are we really going to penalize someone for setting up badly such that a suicide piece was further away than it needed to be?  Does the minimum include maximizing the help from the opponent?
 
"Every whole move must include a suicide" is a bit too loose for my liking, because you could still get a fair bit of advancing and killing done while still suiciding 1 per move.
 
"All the first steps should be in the direction of a trap to suicide in (or to allow another piece to do so), before any other moves are made." Seems like a good general principle to me.
 
I'd be interested to hear other definitions of principles.
 
Quote:
Take your game 73713 for example. You stopped being forthright in killing off your pieces on 6w to prevent bot_ArimaaScoreP1 from goaling, which makes it dubious to consider two additional rabbits as being part of the handicap.

 
I agree that move 6w has issues and doesn't satisfy my definition, but arimaanator may have a different principle that it is consistent with.
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Arimabuff
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Re: Announce Bot Bashing Record - New!
« Reply #18 on: Apr 7th, 2008, 4:54pm »
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on Apr 7th, 2008, 4:46pm, 99of9 wrote:

...I agree that move 6w has issues and doesn't satisfy my definition, but arimaanator may have a different principle that it is consistent with.

99 I am surprised at your remark given the sloppy way you yourself used the sacrificing of your pieces in your EMHHDDRR games. You moved your cat that WASNT to be sacrificied before you can throw your horse in the trap. I am really surprise that you would say something like that when YOU are the one who started the sloppiness here.
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99of9
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Re: Announce Bot Bashing Record - New!
« Reply #19 on: Apr 7th, 2008, 5:00pm »
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on Apr 7th, 2008, 4:42pm, Arimabuff wrote:

As I said almost any game that involves multiple killings contains extra steps here and there.

 
I took a look through this game to find a tricky example:
http://www.arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=73676&s=w
 
And found that on 6w I had to "waste" some steps, because of what the bot did on move 2b.  Was I supposed to predict that and make a preventative early suicide?  Or do the quickest possible suicides as I actually did?
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99of9
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Re: Announce Bot Bashing Record - New!
« Reply #20 on: Apr 7th, 2008, 5:03pm »
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on Apr 7th, 2008, 4:54pm, Arimabuff wrote:

99 I am surprised at your remark given the sloppy way you yourself used the sacrificing of your pieces in your EMHHDDRR games. You moved your cat that WASNT to be sacrificied before you can throw your horse in the trap. I am really surprise that you would say something like that when YOU are the one who started the sloppiness here.

I just posted the exact same situation for consideration.  The difference is that I HAD to move a non-horse (either my cat, or the opponent's rabbit), because the suiciding horse was blocked in.  I figured it was better not to interfere with the opponent's pieces because of exactly this issue.  Notice that all steps satisfy my criteria as stated (but I'm not guaranteeing that was achieved in all games).
« Last Edit: Apr 7th, 2008, 5:04pm by 99of9 » IP Logged
Arimabuff
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Re: Announce Bot Bashing Record - New!
« Reply #21 on: Apr 7th, 2008, 5:07pm »
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on Apr 7th, 2008, 5:00pm, 99of9 wrote:

 
I took a look through this game to find a tricky example:
http://www.arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=73676&s=w
 
And found that on 6w I had to "waste" some steps, because of what the bot did on move 2b.  Was I supposed to predict that and make a preventative early suicide?  Or do the quickest possible suicides as I actually did?

If my game is invalid because of extra steps then so is yours. You shouldn't have put the cat in the way of the horse in the first place.
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aaaa
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Re: Announce Bot Bashing Record - New!
« Reply #22 on: Apr 7th, 2008, 5:10pm »
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on Apr 7th, 2008, 4:42pm, Arimabuff wrote:

As I said almost any game that involves multiple killings contains extra steps here and there.
 
Do you wish to invalidate them all?

 
You sound like there are physical prizes at stake here. It's up to each person himself to decide whether to accept a handicap game as "legitimate". I'm simply pointing out for the sake of fairness that a lack of clarity in how much leeway there is in bringing about the handicap will naturally result in a difference of standards amongst players and thus effectively a difference in handicap despite not being labeled as such.
 
At the very least, Arimabuff, I feel you are obligated to at least formulate the rules you have set for yourself here.
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Arimabuff
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Re: Announce Bot Bashing Record - New!
« Reply #23 on: Apr 7th, 2008, 5:10pm »
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on Apr 7th, 2008, 5:00pm, 99of9 wrote:

 
I took a look through this game to find a tricky example:
http://www.arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=73676&s=w
 
And found that on 6w I had to "waste" some steps, because of what the bot did on move 2b.  Was I supposed to predict that and make a preventative early suicide?  Or do the quickest possible suicides as I actually did?

If you add steps because of something the bot did then it's no different from what I did. You can't have it both ways. Either you are strict for both of us or for NONE of us. It's VERY BAD form that you start having principles only when it suits your purpose.
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Arimabuff
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Re: Announce Bot Bashing Record - New!
« Reply #24 on: Apr 7th, 2008, 5:16pm »
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on Apr 7th, 2008, 5:10pm, aaaa wrote:

 
You sound like there are physical prizes at stake here. It's up to each person himself to decide whether to accept a handicap game as "legitimate". I'm simply pointing out for the sake of fairness that a lack of clarity in how much leeway there is in bringing about the handicap will naturally result in a difference of standards amongst players and thus effectively a difference in handicap despite not being labeled as such.
 
At the very least, Arimabuff, I feel you are obligated to at least formulate the rules you have set for yourself here.

In saw in 99's sloppy game where he added extra steps because it suited his purpose, license for me to do likewise in comparable limits. If 99 can be inconsistent when it comes to his games and strict about the games of others then it's more HIS problem than mine. I didn't say anything about his game even though I saw the sloppiness, I didn't think that he'd have pulled “the holier than thou” trick on me after that. I can see I was mistaken.
« Last Edit: Apr 7th, 2008, 5:17pm by Arimabuff » IP Logged
aaaa
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Re: Announce Bot Bashing Record - New!
« Reply #25 on: Apr 7th, 2008, 5:22pm »
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So can I conclude then you don't have any hard rules concerning initial handicapping or can we just say it's just some very liberal one, like all suicides being counted before a piece has moved beyond the second row?
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Arimabuff
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Re: Announce Bot Bashing Record - New!
« Reply #26 on: Apr 7th, 2008, 5:34pm »
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on Apr 7th, 2008, 5:22pm, aaaa wrote:
So can I conclude then you don't have any hard rules concerning initial handicapping or can we just say it's just some very liberal one, like all suicides being counted before a piece has moved beyond the second row?

I say that in case there are more than 6 pieces killed You can add at most 4 extra steps IN TOTAL between the first and the last killing but that the 4 steps can't form an actual move.
 
By extra steps, I mean steps that don't actually put a piece to be sacrificed closer to its trap.
 
Is that clear?
 
That rule validates both my games and 99's.
« Last Edit: Apr 7th, 2008, 5:36pm by Arimabuff » IP Logged
99of9
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Re: Announce Bot Bashing Record - New!
« Reply #27 on: Apr 7th, 2008, 5:35pm »
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on Apr 7th, 2008, 5:10pm, Arimabuff wrote:

If you add steps because of something the bot did then it's no different from what I did.

Well it is different.  My move satisfies my definition, yours doesn't satisfy my definition.  As I acknowledged before, you may have a definition it is consistent with, but you haven't given your definition.
« Last Edit: Apr 7th, 2008, 5:36pm by 99of9 » IP Logged
Arimabuff
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Re: Announce Bot Bashing Record - New!
« Reply #28 on: Apr 7th, 2008, 5:37pm »
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on Apr 7th, 2008, 5:35pm, 99of9 wrote:

Well it is different.  My move satisfies my definition, yours doesn't satisfy my definition.  As I acknowledged before, you may have a definition it is consistent with, but you haven't given your definition.

Read my post before this one.
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Arimabuff
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Re: Announce Bot Bashing Record - New!
« Reply #29 on: Apr 7th, 2008, 5:38pm »
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on Apr 7th, 2008, 5:35pm, 99of9 wrote:

Well it is different.  My move satisfies my definition, yours doesn't satisfy my definition.  As I acknowledged before, you may have a definition it is consistent with, but you haven't given your definition.

If you can have YOUR DEFINITIONS, so can I.
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