Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register.
Sep 29th, 2022, 3:49am

Home Home Help Help Search Search Members Members Login Login Register Register
Arimaa Forum « Measure stereotyped openings »


   Arimaa Forum
   Arimaa
   General Discussion
(Moderator: supersamu)
   Measure stereotyped openings
« Previous topic | Next topic »
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5  Reply Reply Notify of replies Notify of replies Send Topic Send Topic Print Print
   Author  Topic: Measure stereotyped openings  (Read 14973 times)
rozencrantz
Forum Full Member
***



Arimaa player #4007

   


Gender: male
Posts: 17
Re: Measure stereotyped openings
« Reply #45 on: Jul 4th, 2010, 3:41pm »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

Are there any other stereotyped positions to be alert for? I know that Go's joseki can show up any time during the early game, and Hex's templates can show up almost any time.
 
I'm working on little more than hunches here, but some early-game behavior seems stereotyped to me, even if the specifics vary quite a bit, it seems like gold very often starts by harassing with the elephant.
IP Logged
woh
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #2128

   


Gender: male
Posts: 252
Re: Measure stereotyped openings
« Reply #46 on: Jul 5th, 2010, 3:21am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

on Jul 4th, 2010, 2:37am, Fritzlein wrote:
37. 15  
RMREHRHR  
RCRDDRCR  
 
I wonder how many of those fifteen were me.  I know I tried it for a while, but I forget how long exactly.

 
Fritzlein, you have used this setup 8 times. The first time was in game 88582 played on November 15th 2008 and the last time in game 121447 on April 12th 2009.
It has also been used by Simon (4 times) and Nombril, robinson, and Harren (1 time each).
 
on Jul 4th, 2010, 9:40am, FireBorn wrote:
I think I've tried that one a few times too

 
FireBorn, there are no games where you have used this setup, neither against a human nor against a bot.
IP Logged

Fritzlein
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #706

   
Email

Gender: male
Posts: 5928
Re: Measure stereotyped openings
« Reply #47 on: Jul 5th, 2010, 4:18am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

on Jul 5th, 2010, 3:21am, woh wrote:
Fritzlein, you have used this setup 8 times. The first time was in game 88582 played on November 15th 2008 and the last time in game 121447 on April 12th 2009.
It has also been used by Simon (4 times) and Nombril, robinson, and Harren (1 time each).

Interesting, thanks.  To some extent I am sure that variation in opening setups comes from every individual having his own pet setup that he sticks to religiously, i.e. the variation is more from player to player than from game to game for each player.  This setup, however, shows that individuals are experimenting.  It was more than just a phase I went through on my own.
IP Logged

FireBorn
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #1832

   


Gender: male
Posts: 123
Re: Measure stereotyped openings
« Reply #48 on: Jul 5th, 2010, 2:14pm »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

You're right. I think I switched a dog and a cat when I used it, but I've used it a few times.
IP Logged
Fritzlein
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #706

   
Email

Gender: male
Posts: 5928
Re: Measure stereotyped openings
« Reply #49 on: Apr 7th, 2012, 7:16pm »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

Woh, it has been four years since you first quantified Arimaa openings, and almost two years since your last update.  If you have the time and the old code lying around, I wold love to see the up-to-date statistics.  I'm going to bet that entropy is still increasing, since no consensus on openings has emerged in the past two years, or if it has emerged then nobody told me.  Thanks in advance!
IP Logged

woh
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #2128

   


Gender: male
Posts: 252
Re: Measure stereotyped openings
« Reply #50 on: Apr 9th, 2012, 11:01am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

movgamdisdupmaxsinSSmaxS%
1w87941258753618158936.094213.102346.51
1b879447244070342404710.682313.102381.53
2w879459272867153525911.685213.102389.18
2b87947155163959658812.465013.102395.14
3w8792819060217785112.922113.102098.63
3b876585681976842113.046913.097599.61
4w87248663613860813.076313.090899.89
4b86948669253864513.080013.085899.96

 
The entropy is still increasing but not that fast (after 1w).
The increase was only 0.1947 while the maximum increased by 0.5101
The top opening is almost 50% up, from 1249 to 1815 now.
On the other hand 321 new setups has been used.
It looks to me like some players are experimenting with new setups but nothing is really catching on while most players stick with what they used to.
 
After 4b (or even sooner) there still are hardly any duplicate positions.
IP Logged

woh
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #2128

   


Gender: male
Posts: 252
Re: Measure stereotyped openings
« Reply #51 on: Apr 9th, 2012, 11:59am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

The top gold setups now are:
 
1. (2) 1815 (+643)
RHCMECHR
RRRDDRRR
 
2. (1) 1523 (+274)
RHDMEDHR
RRRCCRRR
 
3. (4) 582 (+332)
DHCMECHD
RRRRRRRR
 
4. (3) 413 (+8 )
HDCMECDH
RRRRRRRR
 
5. (6) 215 (+58 )
RHDMECHR
RRRCDRRR
 
6. (5) 202 (+42)
RHRMERHR
RCRDDRCR
 
7. (7) 129 (+18 )
RHRMERHR
RDRCCRDR
 
8. (-) 110
RHDMEDHR
RRCRRCRR
 
9. (10) 108 (+43)
RHDMEDHR
RCRRRRCR
 
10. (8 ) 106 (+24)
RMDHEDHR
RRRCCRRR
 
The top 2 switched position again with the 99of9 setup with cats behind the traps taking the lead over the 99of9 setup with the dogs behind the traps.
 
The setups with 4 rabbits in front seems to loose popularity with the first one dropping from 5th to 6th place.
IP Logged

woh
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #2128

   


Gender: male
Posts: 252
Re: Measure stereotyped openings
« Reply #52 on: Apr 9th, 2012, 12:14pm »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

Now 831 games started with both horses on the same half of the board. This accounts for 9,4% of the games, a small increase.  
 
20. (21) 49 (+15)
RHCHECMR
RRRDDRRR
 
30. (29) 27 (+4)
RMRDECHH
RCRRDRRR
 
32. (-) 26
RMRDERHH
RCRCDRRR
 
34. (31) 24 (+5)
DHCHECMD
RRRRRRRR
 
35. (35) 23 (+7)
RHDHEDMR
RRRCCRRR
 
37. (-) 19
DMRCEDHH
RRRCRRRR
 
38. (32) 19 (+2)
RMCDDEHH
RRRRRCRR
 
45. (-) 16
DMCDECHH
RRRRRRRR
 
46. (-) 16
RHDHECMR
RRRCDRRR
IP Logged

ginrunner
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #5449

   


Gender: male
Posts: 163
Re: Measure stereotyped openings
« Reply #53 on: Apr 9th, 2012, 9:11pm »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

Mine isn't there Roll Eyes either it is a bad set or too weird for people to be comfortable with.
IP Logged
Fritzlein
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #706

   
Email

Gender: male
Posts: 5928
Re: Measure stereotyped openings
« Reply #54 on: Apr 10th, 2012, 10:47am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

Thanks woh.  I agree with your impression that a lot of people are just sticking with what they know.  I also thought maybe 99of9 was re-asserting its dominance for Gold, and so it is.  We have 42% more games than last time you ran the numbers, and the one true 99of9 setup (cats behind the traps) was up 55%.  But if we take the three 99of9 that are in the top ten (#1, #2, and #5 together), it has only been a 38% increase.  So as a whole,  the 99of9 setup lost mindshare.
 
Some of that mindshare went to different placements of rabbits on the back rank.  Apparently pulling a back central rabbit is no longer enough of a threat to deter starting rabbits there, so people are looking for different advantages.  Also the fact that the percentage of Gold setups with both horses on the same side actually increased means the conventional wisdom that Gold must have a balanced setup is still far from universal.
 
It is tremendously encouraging that Gold setup entropy is still increasing.  Already by the Silver setup, I am quite sure that we haven't played enough games yet to measure it properly.  I expect the entropy after 1s to keep rising for some time, until the unique positions aren't such a large proportion of the total.  But the entropy after 1g could have fallen even this time without surprising me.  It is much easier to standardize when you have nothing to react to.
 
So the fact that even the entropy of 1g is still increasing means that we still have no generally accepted opening theory at all, not even for the setups.  If the repetition in setups comes mostly from the fact that everyone has his own pet setup, then simply the increased number of people playing is increasing entropy.
 
As always, the numbers are fascinating.  Thanks for running it again.
IP Logged

hyperpape
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #7113

   


Gender: male
Posts: 80
Re: Measure stereotyped openings
« Reply #55 on: Apr 10th, 2012, 3:58pm »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

Entropy can also be increasing because as players get more experience, they may feel more of an urge to experiment, regardless of what they think is the best setup. That seems like an untestable, but also unfalsifiable suggestion, unfortunately.
IP Logged
Fritzlein
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #706

   
Email

Gender: male
Posts: 5928
Re: Measure stereotyped openings
« Reply #56 on: Mar 21st, 2014, 9:12pm »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

Hervé, it has been almost two years since your last update of these statistics, and a lot has changed in the opening, particularly due to the influence of browni's setup as Silver (and sometimes Gold).  Would you be willing to give us another update?
 
In the past the entropy of the Gold setup has increased
5.6121 > 5.8995 > 6.0942,
while the entropy of the combined setups has increased
9.4795 > 10.2214 > 10.6823
 
I would be shocked if the second number hasn't increased still further.  Indeed, I expect that when opening theory finally stabilizes, the second number will be more than double the first, because Silver will have more viable options in response to Gold than Gold has in a vacuum.
 
On the other hand, it wouldn't be too surprising if the first number has declined, given the increasing ascendancy of the 99of9 setup.  That seems to be the emerging consensus, anyway, although I haven't done even the briefest scan to see if it holds numerically.  Will the one, true 99of9 setup have more than 20.6%?  Will the combination of that with dogs behind the traps (which 99of9 himself played in 2014 World Championship) have increased beyond 38.0%?
 
I am curious, if you have the time to run the numbers.
IP Logged

woh
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #2128

   


Gender: male
Posts: 252
Re: Measure stereotyped openings
« Reply #57 on: Mar 24th, 2014, 7:21am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

on Mar 21st, 2014, 9:12pm, Fritzlein wrote:
Hervé, it has been almost two years since your last update of these statistics, and a lot has changed in the opening, particularly due to the influence of browni's setup as Silver (and sometimes Gold).  Would you be willing to give us another update?

 
Sure. I didn't realize it had been that long.
IP Logged

woh
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #2128

   


Gender: male
Posts: 252
Re: Measure stereotyped openings
« Reply #58 on: Mar 25th, 2014, 4:17pm »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

movgamdisdupmaxsinSSmaxS%
1g1143415039931281810716.041713.481044.82
1s1143458615573629500310.805313.481080.15
2g1143475153919276664711.918513.481088.41
2s1143491312303144840512.726213.481094.40
3g1143110519912811008013.237213.480798.19
3s1138711065322261085313.403613.475199.47
4g11336112478981117613.451213.468699.87
4s11294112573751122513.456313.463399.95

 
You're correct Fritz!
The entropy after 1g has slightly decreased. 6.0942 > 6.0417
And after 1s the entropy has still encreased.
IP Logged

woh
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #2128

   


Gender: male
Posts: 252
Re: Measure stereotyped openings
« Reply #59 on: Mar 25th, 2014, 4:38pm »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

1. (1) 2818 (+1003)
RHCMECHR
RRRDDRRR
 
2. (2) 1683 (+160)
RHDMEDHR
RRRCCRRR
 
3. (3) 841 (+259)
DHCMECHD
RRRRRRRR
 
4. (4) 424 (+11)
HDCMECDH
RRRRRRRR
 
5. (5) 266 (+51)
RHDMECHR
RRRCDRRR
 
6. (6) 240 (+38 )
RHRMERHR
RCRDDRCR
 
7. (8 ) 168 (+58 )
RHDMEDHR
RRCRRCRR
 
8. (-) 134
CHDMEDHC
RRRRRRRR
 
9. (7) 132 (+3)
RHRMERHR
RDRCCRDR
 
10. (9) 119 (+11)
RHDMEDHR
RCRRRRCR
 
No changes at the top. But the 99of9 setup with cats behind the traps has increased its lead.
Its share went up to 24.6%.
The combination of both 99of9 setups has increased to 39.4%.
IP Logged

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5  Reply Reply Notify of replies Notify of replies Send Topic Send Topic Print Print

« Previous topic | Next topic »

Arimaa Forum » Powered by YaBB 1 Gold - SP 1.3.1!
YaBB © 2000-2003. All Rights Reserved.