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Topic: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions (Read 10070 times) |
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omar
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #15 on: Dec 25th, 2008, 2:21pm » |
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on Dec 25th, 2008, 10:13am, Fritzlein wrote:
As long as we are going for brevity, an asterisk can indicate that a capture was made without specifying the piece captured. The above move would then become d2>dc+*d+*.
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Good point. I actually like: d2>dc+c*d+*
That way the notation conveys information about which piece was removed in the case of dog pushs cat north (it could be possible that the dog is removed in some cases). Though this could be determined from the context adding the extra letter is useful in conveying some information that can be gleaned just from the notation.
In the case of dog going north and being removed, it works very well to not reference the dog again.
I've changed it now.
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omar
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #16 on: Dec 25th, 2008, 2:44pm » |
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on Dec 25th, 2008, 1:44pm, Fritzlein wrote:
Ooh, now that you mention it, I like caret and vee better than plus and minus. I think you should at least list it as an optional replacement. We should see what people like to use. |
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OK I will list it as an optional replacement. Because in some fonts it does look good.
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omar
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #17 on: Dec 25th, 2008, 3:33pm » |
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on Dec 25th, 2008, 1:44pm, Fritzlein wrote:
In general these theoretical arguments are just a lot of guessing, as you specifically found out. You created one notation, Omar, and when I objected that it was cumbersome you defended its merits. Once you actually started to try to use it in practice, you noticed its defects as well and came up with something more compact for a different purpose.
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At the time I gave more importance to the ease of computers being able to parse the notation and being able to even step backwards through the notation. For example d2+* is enough to go forward but can't be used to go backwards. Also I didn't think that humans would be dealing with the notation that much since we would have computer tools to help us. But if there are physical books with notation then humans can't avoid dealing with it directly. The short notation leans way towards the humans without regard to how difficult it would be for computers to deal with. But who know over time we may end up wanting to use the short notation for computers too.
But you are absolutely right that experience is the best teacher of what works in the long run.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #18 on: Dec 25th, 2008, 9:42pm » |
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Sure, the notation you came up with first served its purpose well. And having notation from multiple perspectives serves another purpose. I really appreciate how flexible you are about considering suggestions and changing your mind.
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jdb
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #19 on: Dec 26th, 2008, 6:17am » |
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For push and pull moves, there are two pieces that are moving together. Once one of the pieces is specified, there are only 4 possibilities for the location of the other piece. It's possible to specify the other piece by indicating the direction. (Using 4 new symbols)
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omar
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #20 on: Dec 26th, 2008, 7:51am » |
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on Dec 26th, 2008, 6:17am, jdb wrote:| For push and pull moves, there are two pieces that are moving together. Once one of the pieces is specified, there are only 4 possibilities for the location of the other piece. It's possible to specify the other piece by indicating the direction. (Using 4 new symbols) |
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Since we already have four symbols for direction I would prefer to use those rather then introduce four more symbols with the same meanings. So e>^ would mean elephant pushes the piece on the east in the north direction and >e^ would mean the elephant pulls the piece on the east while moving north. But this would not work without introducing spaces so that the leading direction in a push/pull is not viewed as being applied to an earlier piece in the notation. However we could use two new symbols to indicate a push or a pull. Suppose ) stands for push and ( stands for pull. Then e)>^ would mean elephant pushes the piece on the east in the north direction and e(>^ would mean elephant pulls the piece on the east while going north. Or maybe it would be better to have the arrows align with the direction of movement of the two pieces and in the same order as would be done on the board. So e)^> means elephant pushes the piece on the east in the north direction and e(^< would mean elephant pulls the piece on the east while moving north. I think I like the second way better. The good thing about this is that you never have to reference the opponents pieces using letters. One thing you lose though is that if the same piece is being pulled twice or pushed twice it takes more letters to specify. It would e)>>)>> instead of ed2>>. But it is the same for a flip; it would be e(^<)<v instad of d2e^ed<.
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| « Last Edit: Dec 26th, 2008, 7:53am by omar » |
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jdb
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #21 on: Dec 26th, 2008, 8:03am » |
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on Dec 26th, 2008, 7:51am, omar wrote:
Since we already have four symbols for direction I would prefer to use those rather then introduce four more symbols with the same meanings.
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Maybe just a different mental perspective. The four arrow symbols refer to actually moving the piece(s). The four linking symbols (w,x,y,z or whatever) refer to linking the two pieces together. Then the following arrow symbol refers to both pieces moving together, as in a push/pull.
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omar
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #22 on: Dec 26th, 2008, 8:09am » |
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Thinking about this some more I think I like the notation of e)>^ meaning elephant pushes the piece on the east in the north direction and e(^< meaning elephant pulls the piece on the east while moving north. This way the directions symbols still indicate the direction of movement of the pieces and the direction of movement of the stronger piece is always comes first.
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omar
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #23 on: Dec 26th, 2008, 8:11am » |
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on Dec 26th, 2008, 8:03am, jdb wrote:
Maybe just a different mental perspective. The four arrow symbols refer to actually moving the piece(s). The four linking symbols (w,x,y,z or whatever) refer to linking the two pieces together. Then the following arrow symbol refers to both pieces moving together, as in a push/pull.
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Can you give some examples.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #24 on: Dec 26th, 2008, 9:24am » |
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Although it is one character longer to type e)^> instead of ed>, there is something attractive about not having to use the letters for opposing pieces. For starters, if the elephant was positioned to push two different dogs, one would no longer have to disambiguate which dog.
On the other hand, ed> is closer to natural language, and probably closer to how I think. The expression "elephant pushes dog right" is closer to my thought process than "elephant pushes up, displacing piece right. Although that could be a problem with my thought process that a better notation will fix. 
This conversation is really making me eager to get into the chat room with other spectators of a tournament game so that I can try to talk about the game and see what is easiest to type and most intelligible to read. Definitely 2g e^^^h2^ is going to be a big improvement, but some of the finer points are non-obvious.
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| « Last Edit: Dec 26th, 2008, 9:29am by Fritzlein » |
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omar
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #25 on: Dec 26th, 2008, 10:20am » |
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on Dec 26th, 2008, 9:24am, Fritzlein wrote:
On the other hand, ed> is closer to natural language, and probably closer to how I think. The expression "elephant pushes dog right" is closer to my thought process than "elephant pushes up, displacing piece right. Although that could be a problem with my thought process that a better notation will fix.
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I also think of push/pulls that way.
I was just talking to Aamir about this and he also prefers notation where the opponents piece is mentioned because just by looking at the notation one can tell what pieces got pushed/pulled.
Also I was thinking that in most cases one letter will be enough to identify the piece. So 3 characters will usually be enough to define a push or pull.
Maybe I will keep it as it is for now and after we use it in game comments and chat we will get a better feel for it.
While watching live games I tend to watch from the side of my favored player to win, but I think it might be better now to watch from a side neutral view to make chatting about the game easier with others.
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| « Last Edit: Dec 26th, 2008, 10:30am by omar » |
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omar
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #26 on: Dec 26th, 2008, 11:08am » |
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I changed the notation now to make ^ and v the characters for up and down and took out reference to + and -. Also mentioned that it is OK to use arrow like symbols if they are available.
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clauchau
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #27 on: Jan 5th, 2009, 5:29am » |
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on Dec 26th, 2008, 8:09am, omar wrote:| Thinking about this some more I think I like the notation of e)>^ meaning elephant pushes the piece on the east in the north direction and e(^< meaning elephant pulls the piece on the east while moving north. This way the directions symbols still indicate the direction of movement of the pieces and the direction of movement of the stronger piece is always comes first. |
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Then it might be easier to read and remember with the bracket put after the first direction : e>)^ and e^(<
That way it merely looks like specifying another piece and its moving direction.
Quote: would now be e>)>>)> and e^(<<)v
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clauchau
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #28 on: Jan 5th, 2009, 5:45am » |
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on Dec 26th, 2008, 9:24am, Fritzlein wrote:| it is one character longer to type e)^> instead of ed> |
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Unfortunately, () are also graphically too close to <> and often used to bracket some part of text of formula. It would be confusing if a move was specified along a text inside a paragraph, where () can also be used for remarks - at least in French, where they are used instead of dashes.
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omar
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #29 on: Jan 15th, 2009, 1:22pm » |
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Updated the short notation page.
^, v, <, > are the perferred characters for directions.
+, - can be used in place of ^, v
(, ) can be used in place of <, >
Author can use capital letter for gold pieces and small letters for silver pieces, but not required.
Author can use spaces between movement of multiple pieces but not required.
A "piece square" form of specifying placement and movement was also added.
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