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        Arimaa >> General Discussion >> BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
        
(Message started by: IdahoEv on Apr 20^th, 2006, 4:00pm)

Title: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on Apr 20^th, 2006, 4:00pm

What's the value of a step?

The challenge:

By April 30, defeat the highest-rated bot while using no more than three steps in any turn. Post the game number along with the bot name and official bot rating in this thread to qualify for the challenge. I will evaluate the winners on May 1st, 2006.

I am putting up $15US as a prize for the winner. Anyone else who wants to contribute to the prize fund is welcome to.

Full rules and official bot list at http://idahoev.com/arimaa/challenge_april_2006.html

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on Apr 20^th, 2006, 4:11pm

1172

Win over bot_Aamira2006P1

Game #29197

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on Apr 20^th, 2006, 4:27pm

New high: 1180

Win over bot_ShallowBlue in game 29199

(I just want to make sure people can't get my money *too* easily.)

;-)

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 20^th, 2006, 5:11pm

Excellent idea!

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by frostlad on Apr 20^th, 2006, 5:13pm

Now this is an interesting challenge. Grant it many people wonder what to do with a fourth move quite often, but not allowing it at all takes away 4 move kills and things of the sort.
I think that it will also turn out to be good practice because instead you have to maneuver your opponents into a position where they can not possibly save a piece and you can capture it in under 4 moves.

Two questions evan,
1.) fewest moves breaks a tie if it is the same bot?
2.) Are we talking highest rated bot at the time you beat it, or highest rated bot at the end of the month that was beaten?
3.) are we treating games that win by immobilization the same as well?
So actually it wias three questions but close enough.
You might want to just grab the ratings of the bots currently and use those to determine the ranking of bots.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 20^th, 2006, 5:28pm

I think his link to the full rules answers those questions? ...

on 04/20/06 at 16:00:50, IdahoEv wrote:

Full rules and official bot list at http://idahoev.com/arimaa/challenge_april_2006.html

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on Apr 20^th, 2006, 5:34pm

on 04/20/06 at 17:13:09, frostlad wrote:

I think that it will also turn out to be good practice because instead you have to maneuver your opponents into a position where they can not possibly save a piece and you can capture it in under 4 moves.

Just from my first three attempts, I can tell you it is much harder than I expected. ShallowBlue nearly beat me. I had no chance at all against GnobbyP1, at least not with my standard botfighting strategy. Not being able to flip a piece effectively adds 1Ply to all of your threats, making them much easier for bots to spot well in advance.

Quote:

1.) fewest moves breaks a tie if it is the same bot?
2.) Are we talking highest rated bot at the time you beat it, or highest rated bot at the end of the month that was beaten?
3.) are we treating games that win by immobilization the same as well?

1) yes, with earlier game breaking ties on moves.
2) Highest rating as of today.
3)Any win by goal or immobilization (i.e. not repetition or timeout), any timescale with 15 or more seconds per move. I just amended the official rules to include those requirements.

See the official rules and bot list at: http://idahoev.com/arimaa/challenge_april_2006.html

Quote:

You might want to just grab the ratings of the bots currently and use those to determine the ranking of bots.

I already did. So no cheating by intentionally losing games to a bot to pump up its' rating mmmkay? ;-)

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by frostlad on Apr 20^th, 2006, 5:52pm

Sorry, I completely forgot to look at your site for the full rules. I should have done that before throwing my 2 cents in.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 20^th, 2006, 6:05pm

Did you say any timescale ... as then I could play bot_Bomb2005CC at blitz speed, but this is really the same as bot_Bomb2005Blitz (but now with a higher rating)?

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on Apr 20^th, 2006, 6:09pm

Quote:

I could play bot_Bomb2005CC at blitz speed, but this is really the same as bot_Bomb2005Blitz (but now with a higher rating)?

Yes I'll stand by that. Since everyone has the same option, it's fair. The the rules clarification to handle it would be unnecessarily complex.

I just added a rules amendment to the tiebreakers, to distinguish wins as gold from wins as silver.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 20^th, 2006, 6:16pm

This is a great challenge, IdahoEv, especially because it is such a departure from previous challenges.

You don't mention whether the games must be rated or not. Obviously I'd like to try the challenge with unrated games, since I can't gain even one point against these bots in a rated game, but I can definitely lose points. However, if you allow unrated games to count for the challenge, you will have to exclude all versions of Gnobot2006, since they set up weirdly when the game is unrated.

Give me a ruling before I give this a whirl: do unrated games count?

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 20^th, 2006, 6:17pm

You could say that only the bots listed on your rules page are valid, meaning only those bots and only those timelimits that go with those bots. So playing bot_Bomb2005CC would be its standard timelimit (of 2/2/100/10/8)?

Also, I still don't know how to play a bot with a changed timelimit ... how do you do it?

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on Apr 20^th, 2006, 6:27pm

Good point.

It would be bad to exclude Gnobby, so let's make it rated games only. Put your neck on the line. ;-)

You can do what I did in game 29203. When it has become clear that you can't win using only 3 steps, switch back to 4 steps and see if you can save your butt. Makes for an interesting exercise.

(I'll consider changing this if the community really thinks it's a bad idea).

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 20^th, 2006, 6:36pm

Game 29207, I beat ArimaaScoreP1 with silver in 25 moves. I'm sure that this is by far the easiest bot to beat at this challenge, even though it is the fifth rung on the ladder according to its inflated rating. If ArimaaScoreP1 didn't get to play every newcomer first, I'm guessing it would be rated about 850.

Given what a hard challenge this is, I wouldn't be surprised if no higher bot gets beaten, and the winner is the person who can do in ArimaaScoreP1 in the fewest moves.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 20^th, 2006, 6:42pm

on 04/20/06 at 18:17:59, Swynndla wrote:

Also, I still don't know how to play a bot with a changed timelimit ... how do you do it?

You set up a game with your preferred time control, and then forced a bot to join your game from that bot's control page.

I don't know if Omar has disabled this feature or not. He should disable it if he hasn't. It's absurd for Bomb2005CC to play at blitz speeds and Bomb2005Blitz to play at two minutes per move, since the time control is the only thing that makes them different. IdahoEv, I recommend you change the rule to prevent ridiculousness, and only allow games at the preferred time control of each bot.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on Apr 20^th, 2006, 6:43pm

Swynndla is currently working on bot_bomb2005cc. I guess he decided not to start small. :-)

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on Apr 20^th, 2006, 6:46pm

on 04/20/06 at 18:42:41, Fritzlein wrote:

It's absurd for Bomb2005CC to play at blitz speeds and Bomb2005Blitz to play at two minutes per move, since the time control is the only thing that makes them different.

This is a very good point, particularly in light of requiring rated games; it could hose up the ratings of those bots.

Which has me now leaning toward allowing unrated games.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on Apr 20^th, 2006, 6:58pm

Okay - rules changes in light of recent arguments:

* Unrated games are allowed, except against any Gnobby2006. Any games vs. Gnobby2006 must be rated to be considered.

* Any games begun after 17:00 PST 2006-04-20 must be played at the time scale used by that bot in the bot ladder.

(So Swynndla's current insanity vs bot_bomb2005cc is allowable).

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 20^th, 2006, 7:07pm

I used that standard time limit anyway ... so don't change the rule for me .. and besides I lost already :P

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by nbarriga on Apr 20^th, 2006, 7:08pm

1272

won to bot_ArimaaScoreP2 in 27 playing with silver

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 20^th, 2006, 7:21pm

I didn't think about upsetting a bot's rating, so I've clicked on the Urated Mode link so my 3-step games can now be unrated.

Fritzl, I still can't see how to make a bot play a game I've started anyways.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by frostlad on Apr 20^th, 2006, 7:35pm

on 04/20/06 at 19:21:03, Swynndla wrote:

Fritzl, I still can't see how to make a bot play a game I've started anyways.

When you start a bot Swynndla, it seats itself in the game room on the side you told it to, you just have to go to it and click sit to join the game then.

Or you might be trying to start a game then get a bot to join, I'm not sure what you are trying.
If you go to http://arimaa.com/arimaa/bots/index.cgi and then find your bot and hit play, then you can follow what I said above.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by 99of9 on Apr 20^th, 2006, 7:42pm

What a great challenge! I'm looking forward to trying it.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on Apr 20^th, 2006, 7:46pm

Enjoy! I have about four ideas waiting after this one. :-)

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 20^th, 2006, 7:48pm

Frostlad, yea I can start a bot and join it just like you said ... my question is how to do it the other way ... ie to start a game and then get a bot to join the game I started.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 20^th, 2006, 8:29pm

on 04/20/06 at 19:21:03, Swynndla wrote:

Fritzl, I still can't see how to make a bot play a game I've started anyways.

Looks like Omar disabled this feature. Yay!

Take a look at http://arimaa.com/arimaa/bots/bot_Bomb2005CC/ . Four lines from the bottom there is a way for the developer (with password) to have the bot join an already-started game. There used to be a way for players to do the same without a password, but now it says "Players cannot have the bot join games. Please check again later or contact the developer."

So I guess the rule change doesn't matter, because the feature is no longer there anyway.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 20^th, 2006, 8:44pm

A potential issue ... what if someone beats a bot nicely with no more that 3 steps per move, and then someone else analyzes the end of that game in their own time, and if they work out a slightly quicker win (or even a potential quicker win), and if the bot is deterministic, then a that someone could play the exact same game, and vary at the end, and win even though they didn't do the hard work?

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 20^th, 2006, 9:12pm

on 04/20/06 at 20:44:46, Swynndla wrote:

I don't mind if someone rips off my idea and improves it only slightly. That will keep the contest interesting down to the wire!

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 20^th, 2006, 9:15pm

Game 29233 I beat Gnobot2006P1 with silver in 35 moves. I guess these low bots are much more vulnerable than I thought.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on Apr 20^th, 2006, 10:15pm

on 04/20/06 at 20:44:46, Swynndla wrote:

someone could play the exact same game, and vary at the end, and win even though they didn't do the hard work?

If you're worried, then don't announce your win until 11:55pm on April 30th. In the meantime, hope nobody notices it in the game history. ;-)

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 20^th, 2006, 10:26pm

on 04/20/06 at 22:15:32, IdahoEv wrote:

If you're worried, then don't announce your win until 11:55pm on April 30th.

...and remember it is Pacific time zone :o

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by chessandgo on Apr 20^th, 2006, 10:34pm

With all the respect I have for you Fritz, you should go hunting for bigger bots ;)

Jean

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by chessandgo on Apr 20^th, 2006, 10:57pm

Ok, as I am not after Idaho's money, I won't do the "hide your game" technique and hopefully help you spare your time with 1300 bots ...
I claim a win vs bot_Bomb2005P1 (1703 US 1/1/100/5/0) in game 29242.

Will there be any bot to resist the big guys ? :)

Have fun

Jean

PS : it was quite long 113 moves, but I believe you'll all do much better ...

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on Apr 20^th, 2006, 11:16pm

I haven't verified that the whole game is legit, but chessandgo's game 29242 would seem to disprove Fritz' contention that nobody will beat anything harder than ArimaaScore.

I have to say, I'm impressed. I didn't think anyone would get that high, let alone on the first day!

Good job, man...

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Ryan_Cable on Apr 20^th, 2006, 11:17pm

IdahoEv, I suggest you add to your rules that you must have at least one R left alive at the end of the game. Otherwise, it will be possible to get very cheap wins by immobilization against Clueless2006, since it thinks it has won after all of its opponents' Rs are dead as was the case in the CC.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 21^st, 2006, 12:43am

on 04/20/06 at 22:57:46, chessandgo wrote:

I claim a win vs bot_Bomb2005P1 (1703 US 1/1/100/5/0) in game 29242.

Well done Jean!

I agree with Ryan's comments too, the rules should be changed (regarding the rabbits).

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 21^st, 2006, 2:25am

on 04/20/06 at 17:34:58, IdahoEv wrote:

3)Any win by goal or immobilization (i.e. not repetition or timeout)

This should be put in the official rules too, instead of just in the forum.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on Apr 21^st, 2006, 3:16am

on 04/21/06 at 02:25:29, Swynndla wrote:

This should be put in the official rules too, instead of just in the forum.

It's there. Look again.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on Apr 21^st, 2006, 3:20am

on 04/20/06 at 23:17:16, Ryan_Cable wrote:

IdahoEv, I suggest you add to your rules that you must have at least one R left alive at the end of the game.

Done! Thanks for the suggestion. (I don't yet know of these bot deficiencies, so I must defer to the experts).

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 21^st, 2006, 5:01am

on 04/21/06 at 03:16:24, IdahoEv wrote:

It's there. Look again.

Ahhhh ... right you are :)

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 21^st, 2006, 6:29am

on 04/20/06 at 22:34:39, chessandgo wrote:

With all the respect I have for you Fritz, you should go hunting for bigger bots ;)

Well done against BombP1, Jean. Like IdahoEv, I didn't think this would happen within the challenge, never mind within 24 hours. Maybe Swynndla isn't so crazy to be going straight for the top bot! If he manages to do in the full Bomb, the challenge will be busted almost before it gets started. It seems I always overestimate the difficulty of botbashing, and underestimate human resourcefulness (or bot dumbness). In the case of beating the full Bomb, my excuse will be that I always think in terms of material win, rather than immobilization or direct goal. I forget about the literal winning criterion, and get hung up on my favorite means to the end.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by chessandgo on Apr 21^st, 2006, 8:45am

Yes I think too that Nathan was right trying to go for Bomb ... In a messy position with goal threats and opposite traps controlled the 3 steps handicap looks quite big, even vs the bots, but in a "drag opponents pieces" contest I'm not sure bots have their chance, even with the extra step ...

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 21^st, 2006, 8:53am

I claim a win vs bot_bomb2005fast in Game Number: 38182

Swynndla, Game 38182, 46 moves as Gold.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by chessandgo on Apr 21^st, 2006, 11:00am

Wow ! well done Nathan ! 8)

Here we are ... only BombCC left, right ??
;D

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Ryan_Cable on Apr 21^st, 2006, 12:00pm

I believe Swynndla actually means game 29268. The counter for active games is not the same as the counter for recorded games because some games are started but never played.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 21^st, 2006, 4:35pm

Ahhh yea Ryan, you're right!

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 21^st, 2006, 6:30pm

bot_Bomb2005Blitz
Game 29317
45 moves as Gold 8)

Omar was advertising how computers struggle with arimaa, saying that the best bots could be beaten at blitz speeds. What about the best bots being beaten at blitz speeds plus a 3 move handicap for the human player?

(ok I was using an anti-bot technique, but still, these techniques only exist because computers struggle with arimaa!)

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on Apr 21^st, 2006, 7:15pm

Competition page updated. Consider me just totally astonished.

I considered making the contest say that if anyone beat the top bot with a 1-step handicap, then the game would continue starting from the bottom bot with a 2-step handicap. I didn't include that rule, thinking it would be completely irrelevant. In barely over 24 hours, I disagree umption was disproven!

I can't even beat BombFast yet, much less with the handicap!

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 22^nd, 2006, 12:44am

bot_Bomb2005CC

Game 29357
79 moves as gold (took 4 hours).

... I finally nailed it :P

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 22^nd, 2006, 9:31am

on 04/22/06 at 00:44:42, Swynndla wrote:

bot_Bomb2005CC
Game 29357
79 moves as gold (took 4 hours).

Nicely done. I think the moral of this story (besides that I am always too pessemistic about what can be achieved) is that it's a good idea to have ten-day contests rather than one-month contests. Now all that's left is a relatively boring task of trying to reduce the number of moves. (Unless someone wins faster with a different concept: that could be interesting.) I'm glad I don't have to wait 28 days to hear IdahoEv's next cool idea.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on Apr 22^nd, 2006, 9:49am

You guys are farkin' maniacs. Swynndla's done the impossible. :-) :-) :-)

Nathan, your penance for breaking my challenge is you have to teach me how to beat Bomb!

Okay so, sound off. Do you want to:

(1) continue the challenge re-starting from the bottom of the list with only two steps per turn (which had been in my original concept, but then I thought it was unnecessary because nobody would ever get very high with this challenge).

or

(2) leave you to the grueling task of fighting over the turn count vs. bot_Bomb2005CC for eight more days.

Nathan's opinion counts the most, as he is the current winner.

Fritz gets to wear a clown hat for predicting only 40 hours ago that nobody would get any higher than bot_ArimaaScoreP1.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Arimanator on Apr 22^nd, 2006, 10:36am

on 04/22/06 at 09:49:50, IdahoEv wrote:

Let's not jump to conclusions here. I am getting the hang of it and I think I can do it in a lot less in a couple of days.

Nathan didn't invent that concept, he just adapted the bait and tackle to which Bomb is particularly vulnerable, and in that area, that makes it the weakest bot. That's the only reason he's winnable that way. Several players analyzed that method a long time ago. In fact no other bot as a reaction nearly as stupid as Bomb when it comes to bait and tackle.

Pretending that he just came up with that method out of the blue is misguided at best and dishonest at worst.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by chessandgo on Apr 22^nd, 2006, 10:51am

Nathan superstar 8)

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Arimanator on Apr 22^nd, 2006, 11:05am

on 04/22/06 at 09:31:59, Fritzlein wrote:

...Unless someone wins faster with a different concept...

And since when does someone have to use a different concept in a bot bashing challenge? Where ever that rule has been applied in the past? Nathan didn't come up with that concept, by a long shot. Just because he's the first one to use it with 3 steps a move doesn't give him any proprietary rights. It never has in the past.

First 99 uses his imbecilic bot as a way to humiliate bot bashers and now you Fritz come up with that inane rule. What’s wrong with you guys?

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by frostlad on Apr 22^nd, 2006, 2:28pm

I don't think that fritz was saying nathan owns the bait and tackle strategy.
I took his comment more as that the challenge isn't as interesting now that someone has beaten the top bot using 3 steps unless people go after bomb with a tactic that it isn't particularly vulnerable to.
I look at it sort of the same way. Beating bomb through blockading its elephant but in fewer moves would be very interesting to see, but I'm more interested in a game that is completely different.
I hope you can reduce the number of moves but I'm also interested to see if it is possible to beat bomb in three step turns without that tactic.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by nbarriga on Apr 22^nd, 2006, 3:18pm

on 04/22/06 at 09:49:50, IdahoEv wrote:

(1) continue the challenge re-starting from the bottom of the list with only two steps per turn (which had been in my original concept, but then I thought it was unnecessary because nobody would ever get very high with this challenge).

If you decide to include this rule, i just beat arimaascoreP1 using 2-steps per move with gold in 38, at game 29471.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 22^nd, 2006, 3:30pm

on 04/22/06 at 11:05:26, Arimanator wrote:

and now you Fritz come up with that inane rule. What’s wrong with you guys?

Arimaanator, please separate me from the things that I say. I don't mind if you disagree with the things I post here. I don't mind if you say that I am being inconsistent. I can even tolerate it if you say that my ideas are inane.

However, when you imply that something is wrong with me that is a personal attack. You have made a comment about me, rather than a comment about my ideas.

Do you accept this distinction? It is a very important distinction to me. I respect you as an individual. I don't post personal comments about you, even when I strongly disagree with what you say. Are you willing to respect me as well? In particular, are you willing to disagree with me (when we disagree) without saying anything personal about me?

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 22^nd, 2006, 3:34pm

on 04/22/06 at 09:49:50, IdahoEv wrote:

Okay so, sound off. Do you want to:

(1) continue the challenge re-starting from the bottom of the list with only two steps per turn (which had been in my original concept, but then I thought it was unnecessary because nobody would ever get very high with this challenge).

or

(2) leave you to the grueling task of fighting over the turn count vs. bot_Bomb2005CC for eight more days.

I don't think it would be very fair to change the rule after all the effort that people have put into beating bot_Bomb2005CC with three steps. Both Swynndla and Arimaanator spent hours on that task, which we could have easily verified was unnecessary (under than changed rules) with a couple of 2-step games against ArimaaScoreP1.

Yes, it's boring to have it be just a contest of shaving off moves, but it better for it to be boring than to move the goalposts midgame. My previous post about the "moral of the story" was supposed to say that it is good to keep contests short in case they are busted early, not that it is good to change the contest if someone busts it.

If you don't like move-shaving, then you can always remove that as a tiebreaker in any future bot-bashing contests you propose.

Quote:

Fritz gets to wear a clown hat for predicting only 40 hours ago that nobody would get any higher than bot_ArimaaScoreP1.

And richly I deserve the clown hat, particularly since I already had a history of undersestimating what is possible. Back when PMertens and Arimaanator were doing their amazing bot-bashing exploits, I was forever predicting "X is impossible", only to see one of them do it within days or even hours. When will I learn?

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 22^nd, 2006, 3:41pm

on 04/22/06 at 10:36:56, Arimanator wrote:

Let's not jump to conclusions here. I am getting the hang of it and I think I can do it in a lot less in a couple of days.

If you can shave off even one move from the record, and it holds up until the deadline, then I think you should win the contest, no matter what strategies and tactics you use.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Arimanator on Apr 22^nd, 2006, 4:56pm

I just met the challenge with Bomb2005CC in 66 moves with gold game 29481 by immobilization.

In my opinion beat a weaker bot with two steps a move is a completely different challenge like apples and oranges. It would be unfair to change the rules now that the challenge has been met by IMMOBILIZATION with the stronger bot and you can see that if I used the same concept as Nathan, my application of it is noticeably different.

A three step contest is NOT a two step contest. The weaker bots are NOTHING compared to the stronger ones. I hope I got my point across.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 22^nd, 2006, 5:03pm

on 04/22/06 at 15:34:48, Fritzlein wrote:

I don't think it would be very fair to change the rule after all the effort that people have put into beating bot_Bomb2005CC with three steps.

I tend to agree.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Arimanator on Apr 22^nd, 2006, 5:06pm

on 04/22/06 at 15:30:15, Fritzlein wrote:

I apologize if my remark did look like a personal attack against you. It wasn't. I was upset by what you said which seemed so outlandish considering that when last year I complained about "stolen moves" no one backed me up. Now you say that a "concept" not moves but a "CONCEPT" belongs to the first one to use it successfully. That really got my goat! It really wasn't you but what you said and also a reminder of how we treated these things in the past.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Arimanator on Apr 22^nd, 2006, 5:11pm

Bomb2005CC in 66 moves with gold game 29481 by immobilization.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 22^nd, 2006, 6:19pm

on 04/22/06 at 17:06:49, Arimanator wrote:

I apologize if my remark did look like a personal attack against you. It wasn't.

OK, I'm glad that you can see how it would look like a personal attack, and I'm glad you didn't intend anything personal in the remark.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 22^nd, 2006, 6:54pm

Well done Arimanator for the 66 move win ... I'll have to try and beat that now ;)

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 23^rd, 2006, 12:09am

bot_Bomb2005CC
Game 29515
51 moves as gold.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Arimanator on Apr 23^rd, 2006, 12:56am

Congratulations, but the competition is not over. I say 45 is an attainable goal. ;) We have till the end of this month. Right?

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 23^rd, 2006, 1:38am

Yup ... the end of the month.

I think I could do it in 49 moves if I played 100 games, but I dunno if I could do it in 45!

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on Apr 23^rd, 2006, 10:36am

Since the opinions are unanimous, the competition continues with rules unchanged! We'll do a separate two-step competition at another time.

(Note to those who were offended by the idea: I was merely offering an option to you gents in case slogging against BombCC for a week would be too monotonous. I know that the CC bots are legendary for consuming countless hours of player time.)

I do think it would be interesting to see how well 3-step techniques work against the bots other than Bomb, however. If I could afford to offer additional prizes for each of the other bots, I would. It may turn out that some are less forgiving of 3-step tactics than others.

But consider it a separate sub challenge - see how well you can do vs. Gnobby, Loc, Clueless, Aamira, and Arimazilla, if you have interest. I will keep the best score for each bot enshrined on the contest page, and will transfer records to the Arimaa wiki as well when we move on to the next contest.

Enjoy! In the meantime, I'll work on defeating Bomb with four steps...

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 23^rd, 2006, 11:07pm

So Evan, do you want to put my 51 move win (above) on the list of Current Best (while it still is ... as I think it'll be beaten soon)?

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on Apr 24^th, 2006, 12:34am

on 04/23/06 at 23:07:10, Swynndla wrote:

So Evan, do you want to put my 51 move win (above) on the list of Current Best (while it still is ... as I think it'll be beaten soon)?

Done. I think I missed it in my first scan of the huge number of posts you guys wrote on Saturday.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 24^th, 2006, 2:15am

bot_Bomb2005CC
Game 29606
46 moves as gold :D

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on Apr 24^th, 2006, 2:37am

Nathan, do you sleep or eat ever?

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Arimanator on Apr 24^th, 2006, 2:48am

Congratulations! I may give it another try using Ryan's punched through rabbit technique which seems to make it possible in less than 40 moves but I am not sure it's feasible. It seems that at one moment or another one needs a 4-step move to pull that off. But as anyone here who’s been around for a while knows. With Arimaa everything is possible. I any case you are a worthy opponent and there is no shame in losing against you in that contest.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Arimanator on Apr 24^th, 2006, 2:52am

By the way, what is the current time in New Zealand? is it earlier or later than France? Just curious.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 24^th, 2006, 3:22am

Thanks for your kind comments Arimanator :)

New Zealand is 11 hours ahead of France. It's 20:20 as I write this message.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 24^th, 2006, 6:06pm

bot_Bomb2005CC
41 moves as gold.

Game 29682 or Game 29680 ... take your pick.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on Apr 24^th, 2006, 8:06pm

Watching those two games, I suspect you can get it down to 37 probably.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by chessandgo on Apr 24^th, 2006, 8:06pm

... praise is not even enough ...
Wait Nathan ! If tomorrow you tell us 10 moves, I'm gonna have a heart attack ... :)

(applause) plop plop plop plop ...

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 24^th, 2006, 8:32pm

on 04/24/06 at 18:06:25, Swynndla wrote:

Game 29682 or Game 29680 ... take your pick.

Holy cow. Swynndla was holding the record and decided to break it anyway. And I thought I spent a lot of time on Arimaa. :o From one addict to another: I feel your joy (and pain).

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Arimanator on Apr 26^th, 2006, 12:02pm

How about some bravos for OLTI who beat Bomblitz in the mind blowing unbelievable 16 moves and playing silver? That deserves a round of applause, don't you guys think?

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 26^th, 2006, 12:57pm

OLTI's game is so mind-blowing I still don't believe it, even though I just replayed the game. I must be hallucinating...

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by chessandgo on Apr 26^th, 2006, 2:50pm

it's ... err ... it's utterly ... totally ... incredibly ... hum ... even in french I lack words ...
:o :P 8)

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by OLTI on Apr 26^th, 2006, 2:51pm

Thanks. ;D

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on Apr 26^th, 2006, 10:18pm

Holy.

Crap.

:-) :-) :-)

That looked like a typical game against ShallowBlue. I am totally floored, astonished, agape.

I need to come up with a harder challenge next time!

(The game # was 29865, for anyone reading this thread.) Link: http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/replayFlash.cgi?gid=29865&s=b&client=1

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 27^th, 2006, 7:01am

bot_Bomb2005CC
Game 29977
33 moves as gold.

(until OLTI or Arimanator beats me)

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Arimanator on Apr 27^th, 2006, 11:11am

Congratulations, You reached perfection for that method and I don't think that I can reproduce OLTI's exploit with CC. Although I may give it a try or maybe OLTI will who knows? ;)

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on Apr 27^th, 2006, 5:59pm

Webpage updated.

That's fantastic, Swynndla. I wonder if you could gain a couple more steps by starting with a cat on a1 instead of a rabbit. Then after pinning the phant on the back rank, you could move the cat backwards from a2 to a1, preventing the sideways rabbit push by the phant that costs you a step on 10b and 21b.

(On some of your other games, the enemy phant did that sideways move as many as 10 or 15 times, costing you a lot of steps.)

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 27^th, 2006, 11:22pm

Quite a few others have suggested that too. I've tried it and it has never worked out quite right. The bot is less eager to put it's phant on the back rank with a cat down there to hem it in, and so it keeps it's phant of the 2nd rank (or I haven't been able to get it to work anyways).

Also, Arimanator came up with a very good insight, that when the phant is fully blockaded, the bot's other pieces are all the more aggressive!

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by OLTI on Apr 28^th, 2006, 8:23am

bot_GnoBot2005CC
Game 30058

16 moves as gold

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by chessandgo on Apr 28^th, 2006, 10:29am

Woohoo, woohoohoo !! 8) 8) 8) 8)

Here we are buddies ! No one would have ever bet on THIS !!!!!

On the botbasher page, I see a 13 moves record for normal play ... But this one is even more impressive ...

Well done OLTI, Ron Weasley wouldn't disagree that you should be a Griffindor prefect after this excellent spell ...

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by OLTI on Apr 28^th, 2006, 11:34am

That is why I like Arimaa. I have heard a joke " Your computer beat you at chess?! Try kickboxing! " :) With Arimaa there is no need for kickboxing. 8)

bot_Clueless2006CC
Game 30068
29 moves as gold.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by RonWeasley on Apr 28^th, 2006, 11:34am

This is me not disagreeing.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 28^th, 2006, 12:27pm

OLTI, thanks for proving that other bots besides Bomb can be thrashed at three-step as well. Sometimes I start to wonder whether these challenges would be tougher against other bots, but it looks like Gnobot and Clueless have their own weaknessess. It's great that you are demonstrating both a breadth and depth of human dominance. Much more satisfying than kickboxing...

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by chessandgo on Apr 28^th, 2006, 4:24pm

In fact Fritz, I opened a game against BombCC and began kickboxing my laptop; I have to say that it took me only 4 moves of 2 steps to win by K.O. ::)
Does it count Idaho ? :)

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by PMertens on Apr 28^th, 2006, 5:10pm

just a few days gone and when I am back my world is turned upside down ...

great stuff ... keep going ;)

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on Apr 28^th, 2006, 5:23pm

on 04/28/06 at 16:24:35, chessandgo wrote:

In fact Fritz, I opened a game against BombCC and began kickboxing my laptop; I have to say that it took me only 4 moves of 2 steps to win by K.O. ::)
Does it count Idaho ? :)

Only wins recorded in the public record count.

I looked for your KO game and didn't find it:

Quote:

mysql> use arimaa;

Database changed

mysql> SELECT * FROM GAMES WHERE (wusername = 'chessandgo' OR busername = 'chessandgo') AND termination LIKE '%k.o.%';

Empty set (1.72 sec)

I think when your laptop breaks the game is probably not recorded; sorry.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by chessandgo on Apr 28^th, 2006, 7:12pm

;D hehe

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 28^th, 2006, 11:30pm

bot_Bomb2005CC
Game 30123
26 moves as gold.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on Apr 29^th, 2006, 3:39am

Swynndla you are scaring me.

They have medicine for people with obsession disorders, you know... :)

Website updated.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 30^th, 2006, 1:26am

Evan, how does rule 3 "Earliest game (determined by game end time)" mean the 1st game that won (in that number of moves) or the quickest game (ie same number of moves but less time used on the clock) ... as if it's the latter, then someone might be able to copy the winning entry (at the last moment) and do the moves quick (as they are copying) ?

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on Apr 30^th, 2006, 3:27am

on 04/30/06 at 01:26:43, Swynndla wrote:

Earliest, not fastest. If someone else does it in the next 24 hours in the same number of turns, you still win: you did it first. To beat you, someone now needs to do it in <=25 moves as gold or <=26 moves as silver.

"As determined by end time" is only so that there's no ambiguity if two players were playing simultaneous games: whoever *finished* first would win, regardless of when they started.

Of course, I will also have to go back to confirm the validity of the win. (make sure that it only used 3 steps per turn).

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on Apr 30^th, 2006, 5:02am

on 04/24/06 at 02:52:04, Arimanator wrote:

By the way, what is the current time in New Zealand? is it earlier or later than France? Just curious.

Well, if the rules say I have to go by my time zone, I have to finish in one hour (as it's 23:00 30/4 here in New Zealand) ... but if the rules say that the challenge ends by Evan's time zone, then perhaps I can have a few game tomorrow morning (my time) ... Evan?

Edit: the reason that I ask is, for the PotM it counts games in a given month that a player plays in their own timezone, and so the PotM ends for me in one hour (NZ is ahead of everyone). But this challenge was started for everyone at the same universal time (unlike 00:00 for the beginning of the month, which is local time) ... so perhaps it should end at the same universal time for everyone too?

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 30^th, 2006, 8:00am

on 04/30/06 at 05:02:08, Swynndla wrote:

Edit: the reason that I ask is, for the PotM it counts games in a given month that a player plays in their own timezone, and so the PotM ends for me in one hour (NZ is ahead of everyone).

Actually, Player of the Month ends at midnight GMT for everyone. Otherwise there would be a few hours when my games would count and yours wouldn't, which wouldn't be fair. Not that I'm going to make up 80+ points in the time zone difference, but it's the principle of the thing...

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on Apr 30^th, 2006, 9:00am

Evan's time zone, as it says on the rules page. April botbash closes in approximately sixteen hours; as I post this, my clock says 8:00am here in California.

The reason I picked my own time zone is because I hate doing arithmetic.
;-)

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by chessandgo on Apr 30^th, 2006, 9:36am

And moreover you're somehow the center of the world for the botbashing community, who cares for a silly line in England ? :o

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Arimanator on Apr 30^th, 2006, 12:06pm

on 04/30/06 at 09:36:54, chessandgo wrote:

And moreover you're somehow the center of the world for the botbashing community, who cares for a silly line in England ? :o

In every tragedy there is a silly line. ;D

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on Apr 30^th, 2006, 1:52pm

on 04/30/06 at 09:36:54, chessandgo wrote:

And moreover you're somehow the center of the world for the botbashing community

Amazing what $15 bucks will buy you these days.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Arimanator on May 1^st, 2006, 1:17am

Congrats to Nathan who is now the winner of the contest. That was a highly disputed victory. ;)

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on May 1^st, 2006, 2:04am

Thanks ;D

I got lucky is all.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by IdahoEv on May 1^st, 2006, 5:28am

Congratulations Nathan!

Nathan, can you receive PayPal payments there in Kiwiland? Email me at public at IdahoEv dot com with an address I can get the money to. Good job, dude, that was a truly remarkable performance.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Fritzlein on May 1^st, 2006, 7:33am

on 05/01/06 at 05:28:23, IdahoEv wrote:

Good job, dude, that was a truly remarkable performance.

Indeed, particularly coupled with 115 points in Player of the Month in the same month! You are an inspiration to us all, Swynndla.

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Swynndla on May 1^st, 2006, 3:37pm

Shucks :-*

Title: Re: BotBasher Challenge - April 2006
Post by Arimabuff on Apr 4^th, 2008, 12:59am

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