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        Arimaa >> General Discussion >> The Center Push
        
(Message started by: FireBorn on Apr 22nd, 2010, 3:04pm)
Title: The Center Push
Post by FireBorn on Apr 22nd, 2010, 3:04pm
I don't know if this strategy has been explored before, but I've had some success with it against the iPhone full-strength bot.

It consists of setting up all 8 major pieces in the middle and having blocks of rabbits on both sides: like so


Code:
R R M H H E R R
R R D C C D R R


Then slowly pushing forward until a position like this is reached:


Code:
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . x M E x . .
. . H C C H . .
. . D . . D . .
. . x . . x . .
R . R . . R . R
R R . . . . R R


The advantage being the pieces in the middle help to unfreeze each other while taking control of all 4 traps (rabbits protecting the South traps while the major pieces capture in the North traps). I haven't tried it against stronger bots yet, which I will do, but I'm up for discussion about it anyway
Title: Re: The Center Push
Post by tfitzgib on Apr 22nd, 2010, 7:05pm
One look at my rating will tell you I'm not an expert, so take this for what it's worth.

The first counter I can think of would be a horse-and-dog attack against one flank or both.  If you try this as Gold, than Silver can start the camel on said flank to support that attack.

I notice you have the camel and elephant starting behind the traps; did you have any trouble getting them out?  How did you deal with hostage situations (if any)?
Title: Re: The Center Push
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 22nd, 2010, 8:32pm
Your opponent will need advance enough pieces to keep total control of at least one of his home traps.  Your elephant can't guard both of his traps, so his elephant needs to start making captures in the other one, probably the one in the northwest, and your camel shouldn't be strong enough to stop that from happening.  At the very least he should be able to take your camel hostage, forcing your elephant over to the west to stop the camel from being captured.  That would then make his camel the strongest free piece in the east, and eventually enable him to make captures in the northeast trap.

I have never yet made a central swarm work against a strong opponent.  What is the other guy doing while you roll up the middle?  Where are his elephant, camel, and horses?
Title: Re: The Center Push
Post by Ice on Apr 22nd, 2010, 10:02pm
I have to say though that it is a very interesting idea and I like seeing people explore new strategies.

Does the iphone game client connect to the gameroom? If so, link up a couple of game id's so that we can see or try the strategy out against one of the bot ladder bots and reference the game id.

Just out of curiosity, does the iphone have nearly enough horsepower to field a semi-strong bot?
Title: Re: The Center Push
Post by FireBorn on Apr 22nd, 2010, 10:56pm

on 04/22/10 at 19:05:22, tfitzgib wrote:
I notice you have the camel and elephant starting behind the traps; did you have any trouble getting them out?  How did you deal with hostage situations (if any)?

Nah, just step over the traps.

The bot never took a hostage, haha.
Title: Re: The Center Push
Post by FireBorn on Apr 22nd, 2010, 10:59pm

on 04/22/10 at 20:32:39, Fritzlein wrote:
Your opponent will need advance enough pieces to keep total control of at least one of his home traps.

So the counter would be to advance a bit yourself...interesting.


Quote:
Your elephant can't guard both of his traps, so his elephant needs to start making captures in the other one, probably the one in the northwest, and your camel shouldn't be strong enough to stop that from happening.  At the very least he should be able to take your camel hostage, forcing your elephant over to the west to stop the camel from being captured.  That would then make his camel the strongest free piece in the east, and eventually enable him to make captures in the northeast trap.

Couldn't you use your minor pieces to support the camel, leaving your elephant free?

I suppose if his NW trap is well-occupied it might be hard to defend it...


Quote:
I have never yet made a central swarm work against a strong opponent.  What is the other guy doing while you roll up the middle?  Where are his elephant, camel, and horses?

His elephant usually ends up behind my lines, pushing around pieces aimlessly while his other pieces shuffle around in his back ranks, lol.
Title: Re: The Center Push
Post by FireBorn on Apr 22nd, 2010, 11:02pm

on 04/22/10 at 22:02:31, Ice wrote:
Does the iphone game client connect to the gameroom? If so, link up a couple of game id's so that we can see or try the strategy out against one of the bot ladder bots and reference the game id.

No, doesn't link to the gameroom (yet? :))


Quote:
Just out of curiosity, does the iphone have nearly enough horsepower to field a semi-strong bot?

Yeah, it's not the strongest bot.
Title: Re: The Center Push
Post by FireBorn on Apr 22nd, 2010, 11:44pm
Sample game against Bomb2005Fast: http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/opengamewin.cgi?client=1&gameid=142195&role=v&side=b

I was actually doing pretty well using the center push until I started running outta time and blundering. I resigned cuz I have to sleep now.

On 12s, i probably should've retreated my horse from the NE trap instead of advancing my dog...

On 13s, I probably should've defended SW trap with rabbits and kept my horse in the north.
Title: Re: The Center Push
Post by omar on Apr 24th, 2010, 5:51am

on 04/22/10 at 15:04:43, FireBorn wrote:
I don't know if this strategy has been explored before, but I've had some success with it against the iPhone full-strength bot.


Interesting strategy. You should test it out against the CC bots in the gameroom. If you can win against the CC bots using this, then you definitely have something.
Title: Re: The Center Push
Post by tfitzgib on Apr 25th, 2010, 8:05am
In case you see this before your match today, FireBorn, I for one would like to see how a center swarm would work against a human opponent.
Title: Re: The Center Push
Post by FireBorn on Apr 25th, 2010, 11:12am
Sorry, didn't see it. But I wouldn't risk it for a league game, anyway!
Title: Re: The Center Push
Post by tfitzgib on Apr 25th, 2010, 11:21am
Didn't realize it was for a league game until it started.  I think it was for the best.

By the way, congratulations on the win.  Nice move blockading the enemy elephant.
Title: Re: The Center Push
Post by FireBorn on May 22nd, 2010, 12:39pm
Center push win: http://www.arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/opengamewin.cgi?client=1&gameid=144920&role=v&side=b :)
Title: Re: The Center Push
Post by ocmiente on May 23rd, 2010, 8:15pm
That's the first time I've seen a game like that.  Very well done.
Title: Re: The Center Push
Post by leo on May 24th, 2010, 9:18am
Interesting global strategy. I'm waiting to see it used against human players and how they would adapt to it. The bots being stronger at local tactics they might exploit a weak point once in a while but not get the big picture.
Title: Re: The Center Push
Post by FireBorn on May 24th, 2010, 9:33am
Yes, the bot did waste a lot of moves pointlessly trying to make progress with its horse in the SE. If it had spent its moves more wisely it might have done better.
Title: Re: The Center Push
Post by omar on May 24th, 2010, 9:45pm
Nice game. It certainly seemed to confuse BombFast quite a bit. It made the bot look very easy.

I think it would be worth trying this strategy against MarwinCC if you get a chance.


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