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Topic: 2015 Move 1 (Read 5344 times) |
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deep_blue
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Arimaa player #9854
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2015 Move 1
« on: Jun 20th, 2015, 4:24pm » |
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Hey mobsters,
lightvector told me he would play silver with sharp. So even if the game did not yet start we can start discussing our setup and then necessarily also our strategy.
P.S. Once we get our own board on the forum we can move this thread there.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 29th, 2015, 7:56am by supersamu » |
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supersamu
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Re: Mob game 1g
« Reply #1 on: Jun 20th, 2015, 5:34pm » |
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Looking at the last post on page 4 of this thread: http://arimaa.com/arimaa/forum/cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=talk;action=display;nu m=1207682686 , we can see that the most popular setup was:
RHCMECHR
RRRDDRRR
(standard 99of9 with cats behind the traps, followed by 99of9 with dogs behind the traps).
Maybe woh can update these statistics, but I doubt that the top two setups have been overtaken.
I think both of these are good choices for 2 reasons:
- We as a mob are not only composed of players of different styles, but also of different strengths. So choosing an unconventional opening might dissuade weaker players or players unfamiliar with that particular setup/opening to contribute, because they don't understand the plan we want to follow with an unbalanced/unusual setup.
- I would like us to beat sharp with very straightforward play that doesn't rely on a perceived weakness of sharp's opening, and choosing the most common setup, which is more of a reactionary one, would help prove that point.
So I propose that we choose one of the 2 99of9 setups. I personally have no preference there.
For anyone interested, these are the previous games of the mob:
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/pastgames.cgi?id=6169
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arimaa_master
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Re: Mob game 1g
« Reply #2 on: Jun 20th, 2015, 5:46pm » |
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My suggestion is one of the two proposed:
on Jun 20th, 2015, 5:34pm, supersamu wrote:
RHDMEDHR
RRRCCRRR
(standard 99of9 with dogs behind the traps).
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PerkofBR
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Re: Mob game 1g
« Reply #3 on: Jun 20th, 2015, 6:03pm » |
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I start all my gold games ( and most of silver ones too, even tho its considered bad  ) with the regular 99of9 setup, the one with cats behind the traps.
Cats are usually homeguards, so its best to place then behind the traps.
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half_integer
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Re: Mob game 1g
« Reply #4 on: Jun 20th, 2015, 6:11pm » |
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I also typically use the 99of9 with the dogs behind the traps. Players who plan to use the dogs in the middle once the E, M, and H are tied up would prefer that they are at d1 and e1.
Since I feel that my opening is a weakness, I actually look forward to any discussion on the impact of the setup on the opening, and plans for the opening.
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deep_blue
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Re: Mob game 1g
« Reply #5 on: Jun 20th, 2015, 7:15pm » |
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IMO cats behind traps have the idea to aggressively attack with dogs later while dogs behind traps are used to play more likely a home game.
So while suggesting setups we should also discuss how aggressive we want to play.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 20th, 2015, 7:15pm by deep_blue » |
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browni3141
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Re: Mob game 1g
« Reply #6 on: Jun 20th, 2015, 9:20pm » |
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I am open to a variety of Hb2 Ed2 Me2 Hg2 structures, but dogs behind the traps must be near the bottom of my list. Development of the c2 dog can be a little bit awkward as moving it temporarily removes a defender of the trap and a piece on b3/d3/c4 is required for forward development.
Additionally, forward development of the cats in the center is a little bit awkward as they are vulnerable in the opening in cases where a dog wouldn't be. Also, since dogs desire to advance more than cats, the wings may be left a little bit weak by the late game. This can also be a problem in setups with both cats on one wing.
I will suggest some setups which I prefer and a bit of reasoning behind them.
This one is not exactly the same structure, but it is similar:
RHCEMRCH
RRRDDRRR
Horses often move to the a/h files early anyway so this makes sense, and f3 is not weakened too much because this is done on the camel wing. Silver could respond by making a horse advance on this wing undesirable, though, making the horse a little bit misplaced.
A gold setup I frequently use:
HMDEDCHR
RRCRRRRR
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/forum/cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=talk;action=display;nu m=1344359232;start=
My top two would probably be either my setup or 99of9 cats behind the traps.
I disagree that we need to talk about how aggressive we want to play. We should play the moves which we think are best, which usually won't leave us with an option of being aggressive or defensive.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 20th, 2015, 9:21pm by browni3141 » |
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ikalyoncu
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Re: Mob game 1g
« Reply #7 on: Jun 20th, 2015, 10:53pm » |
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I prefer 99of9 with cats behind the traps
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Hufflepup
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Re: Mob game 1g
« Reply #8 on: Jun 21st, 2015, 3:06am » |
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I favour a 99of9 type setup as well. Too often with unbalanced setups I find that the other side reponds in such a way that I want to switch wings with a piece which just costs time.
When attacking I've found that centralised dogs are easier to deploy than dogs behind the trap, however dogs behind the traps have worked better for me in home games.
As I'm guessing we will want to at least attempt some sort of attack in the opening I am currenly favouring 99 of9 with dogs in the center.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 21st, 2015, 3:07am by Hufflepup » |
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half_integer
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Re: Mob game 1g
« Reply #9 on: Jun 21st, 2015, 7:01am » |
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Browni's arguments in favor of cats behind the traps make sense. My only rationale for the dogs there is in case there is the opportunity to frame a dog, the other sides of the frame are more likely to be in place. However, I would accept it as fact if a stronger player stated that a dog frame in the opening doesn't happen at this level of play.
Some setups with the dogs behind the traps and the cats on c1 and f1 could also be considered - the dogs are then the same distance from d2 and e2 to move up the center, and the cats are only one step away from replacing them.
I quickly flip-flopped on Browni's setup. My first reaction was that using a setup which not everyone understands would make it more difficult to discuss a plan in the opening. But, I quickly was attracted to the idea of learning the benefits of such a setup by actually playing it, with expert guidance. Do other mid-rated players feel the same way? I, for one, would like to better understand some of the non-symmetric setups and their rationales.
So, my vote is currently for Browni's setup for the reasons just given - unless other advanced setups are proposed.
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Samraku
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Re: Mob game 1g
« Reply #10 on: Jun 21st, 2015, 7:35am » |
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on Jun 21st, 2015, 7:01am, half_integer wrote:Browni's arguments in favor of cats behind the traps make sense. My only rationale for the dogs there is in case there is the opportunity to frame a dog, the other sides of the frame are more likely to be in place. However, I would accept it as fact if a stronger player stated that a dog frame in the opening doesn't happen at this level of play.
Some setups with the dogs behind the traps and the cats on c1 and f1 could also be considered - the dogs are then the same distance from d2 and e2 to move up the center, and the cats are only one step away from replacing them.
I quickly flip-flopped on Browni's setup. My first reaction was that using a setup which not everyone understands would make it more difficult to discuss a plan in the opening. But, I quickly was attracted to the idea of learning the benefits of such a setup by actually playing it, with expert guidance. Do other mid-rated players feel the same way? I, for one, would like to better understand some of the non-symmetric setups and their rationales.
So, my vote is currently for Browni's setup for the reasons just given - unless other advanced setups are proposed. |
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Yes, I think using Browni's setup could be educational.
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deep_blue
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Re: Mob game 1g
« Reply #11 on: Jun 21st, 2015, 12:25pm » |
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Half_integer made an interesting point there. I for one would like to learn too how to play such a setup. Still there is the danger though that we reach positions that most players are not comfortable with.
I guess EMH usually gives up a camel hostage to then swarm the trap. Even if that objectively may be sound I am not so comfortable with such positions.
So all in all I am not yet sure if I would want to play such an unbalanced setup. Browni, feel free to further advertise your setup. 
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Knedlik
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Re: Mob game 1g
« Reply #12 on: Jun 21st, 2015, 4:17pm » |
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I was actually looking forward to learning how to best make use of the 99of9 setup as gold. Since even browni has used it in most of his games in the last WC, it clearly is one of the best setups as gold and more of us might be able to contribute in the opening as we are more likely to be familiar with the position. So for the moment, my vote would be in favour of the 99of9 setup (with cats behind traps).
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Algorias
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Re: Mob game 1g
« Reply #13 on: Jun 22nd, 2015, 2:52am » |
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on Jun 21st, 2015, 7:01am, half_integer wrote:
I quickly flip-flopped on Browni's setup. My first reaction was that using a setup which not everyone understands would make it more difficult to discuss a plan in the opening. But, I quickly was attracted to the idea of learning the benefits of such a setup by actually playing it, with expert guidance. Do other mid-rated players feel the same way? I, for one, would like to better understand some of the non-symmetric setups and their rationales. |
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I'm of two minds about this. One one hand, I would find such a setup more interesting to play. However, the mob needs every advantage it can get, and playing a move for any other reason than believing it is the strongest available doesn't sit well with me.
I must add though that unfamiliarity of a move to some players shouldn't be a reason not to pick it. We have time on our side, and therefore the tactical blunder rate should be close to 0.
The only thing I'd be worried about is someone proposing an unorthodox move, it getting accepted, and then that person disappearing for a few weeks, right when their experience is most needed by the hivemind.
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PerkofBR
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Re: Mob game 1g
« Reply #14 on: Jun 23rd, 2015, 12:36am » |
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I think we should play agressively against Sharp.
If we play a defensive game, like Fritz and Deep played in the screening, the game might take too long, and perhaps have the same fate as the last mob vs gang. In one year, we can only able to play 20 - 30 moves, so if the game happens to have 60+ moves, its gonna to be a problem.
Also, a agressive game is more fun 
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