Author |
Topic: Suite of test positions (Read 7772 times) |
|
unic
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #1878
Gender: 
Posts: 63
|
 |
Suite of test positions
« on: May 22nd, 2006, 6:08am » |
 Quote  Modify
|
In a different thread, Swynndla wrote:
Quote:
It would be useful to collect a number of these positions, where there is one right move which either leads to a win or to a definite advantage, and is significantly better than any other move.
In chess, plenty of these test suits exist (Nolot, Win at Chess, various others), and are often used to test programs' tactical search...
Does anybody know of more such positions in Arimaa? I am sure there must be many among all the games that have been played... but I am not strong enough to find them (or to know that the right move is indeed right).
If we could collect a number of these positions (of varying difficulty), that would be a very useful tool for testing the tactical search of bots.
|
|
 IP Logged |
|
|
|
Fritzlein
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #706
Gender:
Posts: 5928
|
|
Re: Suite of test positions
« Reply #1 on: May 22nd, 2006, 10:05am » |
Quote Modify
|
The deepest tactical forced win I've ever analyzed is
http://www.arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=8073
before move 52w. Actually, it's enough moves that I'm not sure of my analysis. Both 99of9 and I changed our minds about the position. He thought there was a forced win, then decided there wasn't, whereas I thought there wasn't a forced win, then decided there was. When bots start analyzing that position accurately, I will be shaking in my boots.
|
| « Last Edit: May 22nd, 2006, 10:10am by Fritzlein » |
IP Logged |
|
|
|
unic
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #1878
Gender:
Posts: 63
|
|
Re: Suite of test positions
« Reply #2 on: May 22nd, 2006, 10:16am » |
Quote Modify
|
So, we have:
Position 1 (game 27019):
Code:
47b
+-----------------+
8| r D r | 8
7| r r |
6| c X X |
5| c |
4| R r h e |
3| D X d r E |
2| C R R R d R |
1| R |
+-----------------+
a b c d e f g h
|
|
Key move: Rd2s dd3s rf3w ef4s
Position 2 (Game 8073):
Code:52w
+-----------------+
8| r D r |
7| R h c E r r R |
6| X m X |
5| R h |
4| r |
3| H X X |
2| e R |
1| d R R |
+-----------------+
a b c d e f g h
|
|
Key move: cc7s Ed7w hb7s Ec7w
(Is that correct, Fritzlein?)
Any more positions (maybe some easier ones to go along with the above supposedly very difficult one)?
How about some positions with forced significant win of material, instead of forced goal?
(Grr - why does the forum eat my whitespace, even when the board is defined as code? And why only in some cases?)
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
chessandgo
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #1889
Gender:
Posts: 1244
|
|
Re: Suite of test positions
« Reply #3 on: May 22nd, 2006, 11:19am » |
Quote Modify
|
Nice position ! I agree with your first impression Fritz,
52w Ed7e rf7n Ee7e (and let's add Ra5n)
Now if silver is to save his camel he must as you said
52b cc7e me6n me7n rf8e
Taking the offered rabbit is logical
53w Ef7n rg7w rf7s rf7x Ef8s
Now you proposed to sacrifice the cat to get an extra tempo with the E
53b me8e cd7s cd6e ee2n
but here gold goals in one after
54w Ef7e Eg7w rg8s
I agree that intead, for 53b, saving the material by
53b hc5e hd5e he5e me8e
would also lose (well, would it ?), for intsance before shifting side with the E gold can play the same idea
54w Ef7e Eg7w rg8s Ra6w
Now either black brings his horse to h6 and abandons his M (*), either he must play
54b cd7n cd8e mf8e x
where shifting side with
55w Ef7w Ee7w Ed7w looks winning.
In the end, it seems that silver can't save his M ;
so maybe it is better to give it on the first move instead of a rabbit (!!) with
52b cc7 e cd7 cd8e rf8e
or on move 54 (*) to bring the horse to h6 ; now the question is wether taking the M in these position will allow gold to goal quickly on one side ... or maybe silver is still winning anyway ?? ... requires more thinking ...
That's a really interesting problem anyway, I'll go on thinking of it tonight
I fear there might be some obvious mistake in my rough analysis ; if you find so I'll be happy to hear where !
Have fun !
Jean
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Fritzlein
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #706
Gender:
Posts: 5928
|
|
Re: Suite of test positions
« Reply #4 on: May 22nd, 2006, 12:36pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on May 22nd, 2006, 10:16am, unic wrote:| (Grr - why does the forum eat my whitespace, even when the board is defined as code? And why only in some cases?) |
|
For some reason, it seems there is a maximum of five spaces in a row before it collapses them. I agree, it is annoying. Perhaps if you use a dot to represent an unoccupied square of the board, the positions will display clearly.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Fritzlein
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #706
Gender:
Posts: 5928
|
|
Re: Suite of test positions
« Reply #5 on: May 22nd, 2006, 12:38pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on May 22nd, 2006, 11:19am, chessandgo wrote:| ... or maybe silver is still winning anyway ?? ... requires more thinking ... |
|
My recollection is that Silver can give up a camel and still be winning. However, if my later analysis is correct, Gold has a move which not only forces the win of the camel, but actually forces goal. That is of course the more critical line. Do you agree that goal is forced, or have I made an error?
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
unic
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #1878
Gender:
Posts: 63
|
|
Re: Suite of test positions
« Reply #6 on: May 22nd, 2006, 12:45pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on May 22nd, 2006, 12:36pm, Fritzlein wrote:
For some reason, it seems there is a maximum of five spaces in a row before it collapses them. I agree, it is annoying. Perhaps if you use a dot to represent an unoccupied square of the board, the positions will display clearly. |
|
I wanted the notation to match the files that the server sends... that's why I used spaces. Dots are probably a better idea - but that would mean bots might not be able to run the test suite without (very minor) modification.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
chessandgo
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #1889
Gender:
Posts: 1244
|
|
Re: Suite of test positions
« Reply #7 on: May 22nd, 2006, 3:20pm » |
Quote Modify
|
I don't know if I have been clear in my post about pgn, but what I meant is partially that it would be great if we could just take the game, edit it with variants, add commentaries at each move, and it could be read somehow.
I have to admit that I haven't found the force to read your extensive commentary, as plain text explanation is very hard and painfull to follow ...
I guess you are right Fritz.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
99of9
Forum Guru
Gnobby's creator (player #314)
 
Gender:
Posts: 1413
|
|
Re: Suite of test positions
« Reply #9 on: May 22nd, 2006, 6:36pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on May 22nd, 2006, 10:16am, unic wrote:Position 2 (Game 8073):
52w
+-----------------+
8|.r.D...........r.|
7|.R.h.c.E...r.r.R.|
6|.....X...m.X.....|
5|.R...h...........|
4|.r...............|
3|.H...X.....X.....|
2|.........e.....R.|
1|...d.R.......R...|
+-----------------+
a b c d e f g h
Key move: cc7s Ed7w hb7s Ec7w
(Is that correct, Fritzlein?)
(Grr - why does the forum eat my whitespace, even when the board is defined as code? And why only in some cases?) |
|
One possible solution is to switch to the [ tt ] flag (I put dots in here also, but now I don't think they're necessary).
|
| « Last Edit: May 22nd, 2006, 6:38pm by 99of9 » |
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Fritzlein
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #706
Gender:
Posts: 5928
|
|
Re: Suite of test positions
« Reply #10 on: May 23rd, 2006, 12:16pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on May 22nd, 2006, 4:35pm, Swynndla wrote:
Nice position, Swyyndla. It's always fun to see the side that is way behind materially force a goal. Unfortunately, the key move is not unique, which may make it less suitable for a test suite. Perhaps if the Gold horse were moved to d6 in the starting position, it would make the the key move unique?
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
chessandgo
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #1889
Gender:
Posts: 1244
|
|
Re: Suite of test positions
« Reply #11 on: May 26th, 2006, 1:08pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on May 22nd, 2006, 12:38pm, Fritzlein wrote:
My recollection is that Silver can give up a camel and still be winning. However, if my later analysis is correct, Gold has a move which not only forces the win of the camel, but actually forces goal. That is of course the more critical line. Do you agree that goal is forced, or have I made an error? |
|
Yes, your analysis is much sharper than mine ... very convincing 
Sorry for the bothering
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Fritzlein
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #706
Gender:
Posts: 5928
|
|
Re: Suite of test positions
« Reply #12 on: Dec 8th, 2006, 9:44pm » |
Quote Modify
|
I suppose test positions are normally asking, "Can the bot find the right move?" but for testing goal search specifically, it might also be interesting to ask, "How long until the bot announces mate?" The terminal position in game 43858 would be such a position. I'm going to let Bomb look at it overnight to see if that suffices.
[EDIT]
Looking overnight didn't even get Bomb to 16 steps depth on my underpowered machine. I'm also puzzled by the output:
14(8-27)-S> -14.54 2.0B 4:29 Mg6s Rf6e Rg6n Mg5n Rg7e df7e MISS
15(8-28)=S> -16.59 1.4B 9:34 Mg6s Rf6e Rg6n Df2w Rg7s df7e hd5n ca4e De2w MISS
So the first report came after four and a half hours, the second after nine and a half hours. The primary variations and the evaluations make sense. What puzzles me is the number of nodes reported. The 14-step search took 2.0 billion, and the 15-step search only 1.4 billion. I thought that number could only go up. Or maybe this is a long integer overflowing?
Anyway, the suggested move for Gold is one I didn't have in my game comment analysis, but apparently it doesn't change anything; it is still a forced win for Silver in three moves. If I enter the first eight steps of the main line, Bomb has to search to depth 13 to see the remaining 16-step forced goal. This suggests that from the original position it would need to search to depth 21 before seeing the forced goal, despite Bomb's good goal extensions. So using the position as a "test" is apparently only going to test whether or not you have a supercomputer.
|
| « Last Edit: Dec 9th, 2006, 10:46am by Fritzlein » |
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Fritzlein
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #706
Gender:
Posts: 5928
|
|
Re: Suite of test positions
« Reply #13 on: Feb 20th, 2008, 6:33pm » |
Quote Modify
|
New test position: game 47333 before move 37w
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=47333&s=w
If am not mistaken, there is only one move which fends off the goal in two that Omar actually played and also fends off material loss: 37w Rg3e rf3e Hf4s Ef5s. Bomb flunked the test live with two minutes per move, but I am surprised to discover Bomb still flunking on my home computer when given more than an hour.
[EDIT]
Whoops, it seems Bomb didn't "find" 37w Rg3e rf3e Hf4s Ef5s because that in fact allows goal in two with 37b Ce2e mf2e Rf1n dg1w. The move Bomb actually settled on after completing depth 12 was 37w He3w rf3w Hf4s Ef5s, but it turns out this also allows goal in three after 37b Ce2e mf2e Rf1n dg1w because now the central rabbit is a goal threat as well. So this position isn't a good "find the right move" test position, it's only a "how long until you realize you are doomed" test position.
|
| « Last Edit: Feb 21st, 2008, 7:40am by Fritzlein » |
IP Logged |
|
|
|
chessandgo
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #1889
Gender:
Posts: 1244
|
|
Re: Suite of test positions
« Reply #14 on: Feb 27th, 2008, 6:08am » |
Quote Modify
|
on Feb 20th, 2008, 6:33pm, Fritzlein wrote:New test position: game 47333 before move 37w
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=47333&s=w
If am not mistaken, there is only one move which fends off the goal in two that Omar actually played and also fends off material loss: 37w Rg3e rf3e Hf4s Ef5s. Bomb flunked the test live with two minutes per move, but I am surprised to discover Bomb still flunking on my home computer when given more than an hour.
[EDIT]
Whoops, it seems Bomb didn't "find" 37w Rg3e rf3e Hf4s Ef5s because that in fact allows goal in two with 37b Ce2e mf2e Rf1n dg1w. The move Bomb actually settled on after completing depth 12 was 37w He3w rf3w Hf4s Ef5s, but it turns out this also allows goal in three after 37b Ce2e mf2e Rf1n dg1w because now the central rabbit is a goal threat as well. So this position isn't a good "find the right move" test position, it's only a "how long until you realize you are doomed" test position. |
|
Hmmm I had written down an analysis about this goal attack some time ago, not sure if it's accurate though. Wouldn't simply 37w E to h3 avoid goal in the forseeable future ?
I had written that the solution (for silver on previous move) was 36b rh3s rh6s rh5s (with possibly a void step to complete the move), forcing goal in 3. But I haven't been able to check with Bomb ; do I have something wrong ?
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
|
Home
Help
Search
Members
Login
Register
Reply
Notify of replies
Send Topic
Print