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Topic: Game 138105: Belteshazzar vs. GnoBot2005P2 (Read 3180 times) |
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Belteshazzar
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Game 138105: Belteshazzar vs. GnoBot2005P2
« on: Mar 17th, 2010, 1:37pm » |
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Can someone point out where I am going wrong, using this game as an example? I realize I could go back to playing the weaker bots, but I feel like that would just reinforce tactics that don't work against a strong opponent.
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ocmiente
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Re: Game 138105: Belteshazzar vs. GnoBot2005P2
« Reply #1 on: Mar 17th, 2010, 1:49pm » |
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I'd guess that you might want to practice framing the opponent's horse.
On move 9g, you could have framed silver's horse by moving Rg1w De1n, and then maybe move the camel away from the elephant with Dd1n Md3w (just to avoid the possibility that silver might want to try to push your camel north). Silver's elephant will then be pinned and cannot move without losing it's horse. Once you have the opponent's horse framed - provided you can maintain the frame, you should be able to win against this bot.
After you master framing the horse, then you should work on rotating out your more powerful pieces from the frame. In this case, you might be able to rotate the eastern horse out, and use it to rotate the elephant out - at least to the west one space (you have to protect that horse...) so that the elephant can at least threaten other pieces on the board.
In games against more advanced opponents, however, horse frames don't seem to hold up as well - but GnoBot is not one of those opponents 
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| « Last Edit: Mar 17th, 2010, 1:55pm by ocmiente » |
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FireBorn
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Re: Game 138105: Belteshazzar vs. GnoBot2005P2
« Reply #2 on: Mar 17th, 2010, 2:53pm » |
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Yes, a proper horse frame would have been a game-changer.
Also, starting on 14g, you could've saved a lot of pieces by pushing the cat north with your camel, thereby defending that home trap of yours.
Also, you might want to think through your attacks a little better because some of your pulls were undone pretty easily by the bot. You might want to try threatening a pull on one move, and then double-pulling on the next and you might try flipping pieces as well. Also, you might want to attack with 2 or more pieces. Elephant + horse works well, as a starting point.
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novacat
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Re: Game 138105: Belteshazzar vs. GnoBot2005P2
« Reply #3 on: Mar 17th, 2010, 7:21pm » |
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I suggest you work on two areas.
First, find ways to keep pieces safe. I consider any piece past the 3rd row to be in danger unless properly supported. Any piece adjacent to a stronger enemy piece is also in danger.
Second, find ways to effectively trap enemy pieces. Stronger opponents do not easily let you pull pieces back to your side. Next, figure out how to kill the piece (like framing the horse). Often, the best way to both get a piece and kill a piece is by threatening pieces in two different locations.
A good way to learn these skills is to watch stronger players play. You can also look at a bot's game history to see how others went about defeating it.
It takes time and practice to learn good strategies so keep at it!
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| « Last Edit: Mar 17th, 2010, 7:22pm by novacat » |
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Belteshazzar
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Re: Game 138105: Belteshazzar vs. GnoBot2005P2
« Reply #4 on: Mar 17th, 2010, 8:43pm » |
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Thanks, guys, I just beat the bot in question. Though I am surprised it didn't bring up its elephant to combat my goal threat at the end. I guess it's a good idea to move weaker pieces out in front early on, as it is not to the opponent's advantage to go after them.
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Belteshazzar
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Re: Game 138105: Belteshazzar vs. GnoBot2005P2
« Reply #5 on: Mar 19th, 2010, 12:26am » |
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Wow, I just beat bot Aamira2006P2 without losing a piece. The key was that I successfully framed the camel. Definitely my best game so far.
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ocmiente
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Re: Game 138105: Belteshazzar vs. GnoBot2005P2
« Reply #6 on: Mar 19th, 2010, 8:40am » |
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Congratulations!
However... I'm not sure that I'd say that it was a solid frame. The Cat (and later the Cat and the Horse) could have moved to the side (or later, back), allowing the Camel to push its way out of the trap. I think it was the aggresive nature of this bot that let you get away with it. Framing a Camel completely is hard to do, and it's expensive - in that it takes a lot of pieces to do it. Even if you succeed, it's likely that your opponent will push a rabbit down the other side of the board while you are enjoying the pleasure of having framed your opponent's Camel.
I strongly agree with novacat, above, in that watching the bot play stronger players helps a great deal in beating the bots.
Also, in addition to framing the opponent's horse, I found that elephant blockades were also very useful against the higher level bots. You've probably seen this, but in case you haven't, this page has some very useful information:
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/mwiki/index.php/Bot_Slaying
Especially Bait and Tackle. Though I must warn you that Bait and Tackle is one of those things that probably works very well against bots - and even then you have to work on maintaining the blockade - but it's not something that you can usually do vs. human opponents. Then again, every tool you have will help.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 19th, 2010, 8:57am by ocmiente » |
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Belteshazzar
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Re: Game 138105: Belteshazzar vs. GnoBot2005P2
« Reply #7 on: Mar 19th, 2010, 10:35am » |
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Yes, I had figured that a tougher opponent would have found its way out of or more likely avoided that frame in the first place. Also, I think it would have been better off abandoning its camel before it did. At this point I'm not sure I would have made that goal if the enemy elephant had been there, though I would have then had my elephant to combat it.
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Belteshazzar
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Re: Game 138105: Belteshazzar vs. GnoBot2005P2
« Reply #8 on: Mar 22nd, 2010, 9:02pm » |
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This is my new best game. Even though I carelessly lost a horse near the end, I didn't get demoralized by it. And I'm sure I did any number of things which a stronger opponent wouldn't have let me get away with. 15 more bots to go...
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| « Last Edit: Mar 22nd, 2010, 9:06pm by Belteshazzar » |
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FireBorn
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Re: Game 138105: Belteshazzar vs. GnoBot2005P2
« Reply #9 on: Mar 23rd, 2010, 11:08am » |
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Nice. You totally almost lost there at the end, lol, but good job seeing the Elephant sac. I see you've taken some of our advice and are getting better. Good job
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Belteshazzar
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Re: Game 138105: Belteshazzar vs. GnoBot2005P2
« Reply #10 on: Apr 13th, 2010, 6:26pm » |
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My new approach is to start back at the bottom of the ladder and play each bot until I beat it without losing a single piece myself. Is that a good way to build overall skill?
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novacat
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Re: Game 138105: Belteshazzar vs. GnoBot2005P2
« Reply #11 on: Apr 14th, 2010, 5:42am » |
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It is a good idea to learn to identify tactical blunders. Playing bots is a good way to do this, as any decent bot will not let you get away with such a mistake. One suggestion, try to keep all your pieces, but learn when a piece cannot be saved and should be let go. Your moves are better used developing a strategic advantage (if you do this well, you may end up saving your piece anyway!).
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Fritzlein
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Re: Game 138105: Belteshazzar vs. GnoBot2005P2
« Reply #12 on: Apr 14th, 2010, 6:19am » |
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on Apr 13th, 2010, 6:26pm, Belteshazzar wrote:| My new approach is to start back at the bottom of the ladder and play each bot until I beat it without losing a single piece myself. Is that a good way to build overall skill? |
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I think it is optimal to balance between taking on new challenges and consolidating what one has already learned. Newcomers who try to storm the bot ladder by beating each bot only once err on the side of new challenges. They stall out, and don't realize they have hit a wall because they didn't learn as much as they should have from previous rungs of the ladder. One can continue to learn from a bot that one has already beaten for quite some time in some cases.
On the other hand, I think a striving for perfection against each bot to the point of giving handicaps errs on the side of going too slowly. Against weaker bots, playing blunder-free often results in a no-loss win, but making a no-loss win your goal is not real Arimaa. You can learn something from the effort, but it would be akin to trying to beat a certain opponent at tennis with only your backhand. Sure, your backhand will get stronger, and you will run harder, and against weaker opponents it will even work, but it's not necessarily a good habit.
In my opinion, the best way to balance consolidation with new challenges is to rely on your sense of boredom. Keep trying to a beat a bot until beating it becomes boring. If you have to start restricting yourself (e.g. give a dog handicap; make no captures; don't pull rabbits; don't use elephant-horse attack, etc.) then it is a sign you are bored and should move on to the next bot.
Nowadays there are enough human players that there is simply no need to bend over backwards to keep bot games interesting. If you become bored against every bot, like Tuks has become, you can always move on to human opponents.
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omar
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Re: Game 138105: Belteshazzar vs. GnoBot2005P2
« Reply #13 on: Apr 15th, 2010, 11:36am » |
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on Apr 13th, 2010, 6:26pm, Belteshazzar wrote:| My new approach is to start back at the bottom of the ladder and play each bot until I beat it without losing a single piece myself. Is that a good way to build overall skill? |
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When you are starting out, I think this is a great idea. Winning without losing a single piece helps you learn to avoid one move blunders. I think that is a crucial step to improving in Arimaa.
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Belteshazzar
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Re: Game 138105: Belteshazzar vs. GnoBot2005P2
« Reply #14 on: Apr 19th, 2010, 4:44pm » |
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This is the first time I've beaten Arimazilla while keeping all of my pieces, and I hadn't even been beating that bot consistently up till now. I'm thinking that, until you're really good, it may be best to tuck your camel away at the beginning.
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