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Topic: Elephant and Camel attack (Read 1530 times) |
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nbarriga
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Elephant and Camel attack
« on: Apr 11th, 2007, 1:16pm » |
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Does anybody uses the Elephant and Camel attack? Or maybe Elephant, Camel and Horse...
I'm asking because I just realised today that I have material advantage in all my postal games(at least those that are more than 5 moves long), but I am not clearly winning because my camel is at risk in all of those games.
I just read the section on elephant and camel attack in the wikibook, but I'm not really a "strategical player", I just play instinctively(and my instincts are not that good  it show on my rating) and rely on somewhat decent tactics and waiting for the oponnet to blunder.
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RonWeasley
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Re: Elephant and Camel attack
« Reply #1 on: Apr 11th, 2007, 2:27pm » |
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While I won't address your specific positions, the players who best utilize the camel are the best players. I'm not always sure how they get away with it. Games of the top 5 active players probably have some examples.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Elephant and Camel attack
« Reply #2 on: Apr 11th, 2007, 5:50pm » |
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on Apr 11th, 2007, 1:16pm, nbarriga wrote:| Does anybody uses the Elephant and Camel attack? Or maybe Elephant, Camel and Horse... |
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Nowadays hardly anybody attacks with the elephant and camel, because the camel hostage strategy is so broadly effective.
About two years ago there was a spurt of interest in attacking with elephant + camel, fueled by conviction that camel hostages weren't as bad as we thought. I guess Omar was an early experimenter, but other players including robinson and especially Adanac soon took over the banner. Before long it was proven that in some circumstances the hostage holder is actually at a _disadvantage_, even if material is still even. It is possible for the hostage-holding elephant to become buried, which frees up the opposing elephant to dominate the rest of the board. See the game Thorin vs. Adanac from the 2006 Postal Tournament for an example of this.
Since the heyday of the elephant + camel attack, the pendulum has swung back somewhat. Folks have learned new ways to make sure the camel hostage is worth more than zero, as long as you are careful _how_ you take it hostage. A camel hostage isn't something to be willingly conceded in general. On the other hand, I doubt we will go back to the days when folks gladly sacrificed a dog to gain a camel hostage. Come to think of it, I once said I was happy to gain a camel hostage in exchange for two cats. Madness! Today mainstream players wouldn't always sacrifice _one_ cat to gain a camel hostage, depending on the position.
Adanac used to advance rabbits along with his camel, to prevent the camel from being taken hostage, or to bury the opposing elephant if it tried to take the camel hostage. The problem is that in some circumstances, the camel can be walled out by the advanced rabbits. The camel then threatens nothing, while the friendly rabbits are stuck forward getting in the way and waiting to be captured at a later date. I think Adanac finally gave up on his camel advances.
The only top player I know who is cavalier about his camel is blue22. However, he often attacks first with elephant and horse on one wing, before exposing his camel on the other wing. He is apparently quite happy to get a horse and cat in exchange for his camel. Indeed, in his current postal game with Zombie, blue22 gave away his camel for only a dog and a cat. This seems crazy to me, but it goes hand and glove with reckless camel attacks. If I were happy to get HR for M or DC for M, then I would attack with my camel every game.
The reason an elephant + camel + horse attack is not so popular is that, once the attacking camel is taken hostage, there's not much for the horse to do. At best the horse can help free up the attacking elephant, which can create very sharp positions. Unfortunately, if you have committed MHH to tying down the opposing elephant, your free elephant won't necessarily be able to rule the rest of the board. It's tricky, and timing is everything. See game 19732 (also linked from the camel hostage page in Wikibooks) for how the "free elephant" can fail to dominate.
In contrast, an elephant + horse + camel attack is actually pretty powerful, and chessandgo uses it regularly. The important point is that the horse stays in front of the camel, so that the camel can't be taken hostage. Meanwhile the camel buzzing around behind the attack prevents the defender from getting a useful horse hostage or horse frame. Whether chessandgo tries to take over a trap or merely tries to pull out a hostage depends on how the defender reacts.
Brendan also uses (or used to use?) his camel very actively. The idea is not necessarily to take over an enemy trap so much as to harass enemy horses with the camel + elephant. A key point is that you can let your camel be taken hostage if you are winning a horse with your elephant at the same time. A camel hostage is a long way short of being worth a horse sacrifice.
For now it is still the rule to use the camel primarily defensively in the opening, but as you can see, the rule is broken as often as it is kept. In my current postal game against chessandgo, he is taunting me by leaving his camel in the center of the board where my elephant can attack it. I clearly can't keep his camel hostage given his advanced horses on both wings. Has chessandgo introduced any weaknesses at all in his position by advancing pieces so threateningly? Are these the dying days of defensive play, after which the only response to attack is greater attack? Time will tell...
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| « Last Edit: May 11th, 2007, 7:37am by Fritzlein » |
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nbarriga
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Re: Elephant and Camel attack
« Reply #3 on: May 11th, 2007, 5:31am » |
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Well, for the moment I have won 2 of the 3 games where I used the camel for attacking early in the game. So it seems it can work, even though the bills for antistress pills almost broke me
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NIC1138
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Re: Elephant and Camel attack
« Reply #4 on: May 11th, 2007, 9:16am » |
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You have to be very carefull... I've been losing my camel often in my last games, becauase I eventually try some kind of attack with it.  Usually after a horse hostage... I'm trying to change style, because this is really not good.
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| « Last Edit: May 11th, 2007, 9:16am by NIC1138 » |
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nbarriga
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Re: Elephant and Camel attack
« Reply #5 on: May 11th, 2007, 12:51pm » |
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The problem is that I don't do it conciously, it just happens, and about move 15-20 I realize my camel is deep in enemy territory.
I'll have to start paying more attention to strategy i nstead of relying solely on tactics.
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NIC1138
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Re: Elephant and Camel attack
« Reply #6 on: May 11th, 2007, 1:14pm » |
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Yes... I also play a lot "by instinc", and when I get to move 15, as you said, I usually see myself attacking, while I wanted to play defensively, as I heard is the best way to play!!  The better players kind of lure me into attacking them against my planned strategy! 
I had a few of games recently where I start with a horse hostage, then try to do something with my camel, and lose it. I'm inclined to start trying to keep the camel nearby, so I cand pass the horse from the phant to the camel... But I don't think this will work.
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chessandgo
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Re: Elephant and Camel attack
« Reply #7 on: May 11th, 2007, 3:45pm » |
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on May 11th, 2007, 1:14pm, NIC1138 wrote:
I had a few of games recently where I start with a horse hostage, then try to do something with my camel, and lose it. I'm inclined to start trying to keep the camel nearby, so I cand pass the horse from the phant to the camel... |
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You're right here, Nic. Horse hostaged by phant is bad, that is unless you can "pass" this horse to your camel, as you say, ie transform the situation into horse hostaged by M. This is really good. This said, in practice it is often hard to do this, as the enemy camel is almost free to roam on the rest of the board, meanwhile.
Anyway, this is the only plan I can see to pretend doing anything with a E hostaging h. As you realized, going into a camel battle on the other wing gives easier play to your opponent, for your phant is far away from this wing, while the enemy phant is centered.
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chessandgo
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Re: Elephant and Camel attack
« Reply #8 on: May 13th, 2007, 4:44pm » |
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on May 11th, 2007, 3:45pm, chessandgo wrote:
You're right here, Nic. Horse hostaged by phant is bad, that is unless you can "pass" this horse to your camel, as you say, ie transform the situation into horse hostaged by M. This is really good. This said, in practice it is often hard to do this, as the enemy camel is almost free to roam on the rest of the board, meanwhile.
Anyway, this is the only plan I can see to pretend doing anything with a E hostaging h. As you realized, going into a camel battle on the other wing gives easier play to your opponent, for your phant is far away from this wing, while the enemy phant is centered. |
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Well, in the comments of the Nic vs Nico game 51253, Karl contradicted what I'm saying here, so I guess you can forget my answer, Nic
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Fritzlein
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Re: Elephant and Camel attack
« Reply #9 on: May 14th, 2007, 8:37am » |
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on May 11th, 2007, 3:45pm, chessandgo wrote:| You're right here, Nic. Horse hostaged by phant is bad, that is unless you can "pass" this horse to your camel |
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Well, I just think it is not so clear. Sometimes it is definitely bad to hold a horse hostage with your elephant, but sometimes it is good, even if you can't immediately pass off the horse to the friendly camel. A horse frame is good: see the comments to game 51426. Arimaa_master's camel was on the opposite wing from 99of9's attacking horse, but the horse got in trouble all the same. I think arimaa_master was clearly winning after move 15.
The hottest topic of Arimaa opening theory right now is deciding when an elephant holding a horse hostage is bad and when it is good. If it turns out to be "mostly bad" I may have rework my strategy, and NIC can listen to what you said after all.
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