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Topic: Big picture concepts? (Read 2930 times) |
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arimaaphile
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Big picture concepts?
« on: Jun 10th, 2011, 11:46pm » |
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Hi all,
I'm trying to figure out how to study arimaa. Browsing topics in the forum, it seems, there are several ideas-concepts that beginners like me need to know and invest after playing a few games with bots and human beings. For example, I read in one of Fritz's comments how important it is to study middle-game and end-game rather than invest in studying openings (Fritz, correct me if I misunderstood you or missed your point. Thanks in advance).
I'm a person who prefers to move from general concepts to their concrete and particular expressions rather from case-by-case studies to generating some ideas-concepts. I read half of the wiki-book and continue to read it. But it seems some of us may need shorter, precise, and general introduction of the most indispensable concepts of arimaa.
So, here is the question for more experienced players:
1. What fundamental ideas-concepts are there to study arimaa deeper (influence, balance, material advantage, move combinations, opening, middle game, criteria of positional judgment etc. whatever you think is important).
2. How do you define those most important ideas-concepts?
Thanks in advance.
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aaaa
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Re: Big picture concepts?
« Reply #1 on: Jun 11th, 2011, 10:32am » |
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You didn't mention "development", which is very important in Arimaa.
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megajester
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Re: Big picture concepts?
« Reply #2 on: Jun 12th, 2011, 6:30pm » |
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Actually, this was the thinking behind this idea, which I never quite got around to implementing.
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arimaaphile
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Re: Big picture concepts?
« Reply #3 on: Jun 12th, 2011, 10:25pm » |
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I think I read about development from somewhere else but I don't know how much important that is to arimaa. Is that very, VERY important or you would put that in the bottom of the list among other concepts as the least important of relatively important concepts? Thanks for reminding though. In addition, I don't know how to define development. Intuitively, I understand what that means. I assume it means to move your pieces around and position them in key places/squares (or am I wrong?). But how that relates to other concepts like material advantage? Which one is more important or fundamental to newcomers to learn and apply? Are there different kinds of development in arimaa, like position development and piece development? These are things I want to know.
On another note, megajester, the link you provided looks to be more about how to think during a game session rather than primary concepts about how to analyze arimaa while studying it outside of any particular game.
It has lots of valuable information, I appreciate that. But it does not look like systematized knowledge of arimaa fundamental concepts.
Anyway, I hope I was able to articulate what I wanted to say.
Anything else to share?
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Fritzlein
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Re: Big picture concepts?
« Reply #4 on: Jun 12th, 2011, 10:47pm » |
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on Jun 12th, 2011, 10:25pm, arimaaphile wrote:| But it does not look like systematized knowledge of arimaa fundamental concepts. |
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In both of your posts, it seems that what you are asking for is the Arimaa Wikibook. That is a systematized presentation of fundamental concepts. I don't understand the way in which that presentation is not meeting your needs. I would also recommend my book Beginning Arimaa, but that is just a refined and expanded version of the Wikibook. It's hard to respond to your question when I feel I would only be restating things I have already written.
I assure you that I am not keeping any secrets about Arimaa strategy. What I know I freely share. Therefore it can feel strange when someone says, "I have read the Wikibook, but what I want to know are the fundamental concepts." Do you think the Wikibook is missing the point? Is it confusing you with an incoherent collection of tips instead of explaining what is really important? Is it too basic? Too advanced?
Most concepts in Arimaa can't be precisely defined, nor can they be precisely ranked. There is no way to generalize and say that better development is worth more than an extra rabbit or less than an extra rabbit. It depends on the position. Furthermore, any piece other than the elephant that is more developed is also more exposed. An advanced piece gives the advantage that it can threaten to do something, but the disadvantage that it can be itself threatened.
If there were a strict ranking of what is most important to do in order A, B, C, D, and if all those things were well-defined, we would not hide the ranking from you, and we wouldn't keep the definitions secret. Also, if we knew all these things with precision, Arimaa wouldn't be interesting. We would have it reduced to a formula, and the developers would put that formula into their bots, and the bots would win the Arimaa Challenge.
Instead the best we can do is give some strategic markers, some ideas to be aware of, some things to think about. We can say in general why those things are important, and who benefits, and why. This should help guide your thoughts, but the thinking is not already done. There is a great deal that even the experts don't know, so we are all learning together.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 12th, 2011, 11:07pm by Fritzlein » |
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Hippo
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Re: Big picture concepts?
« Reply #5 on: Jun 13th, 2011, 4:12am » |
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I am not sure what a development is, but I hope it's what can be found in my current aoutopopstal with arimaa_master.
I started unusually with 99of9 what meant stalemate openning. Arimaa_master started with elephant only attacks trying to pull my pieces and I carefully advanced with the pieces (no to be pulled too much).
In one stage it seemed to me I am advanced enough that it's safe to attack arimaa_master's home trap (at the same time arimaa_master started hostaging maneuver to my camel, but he did it carefully as he already seen strong swarm options on my side).
Now he let the camel go as his trap is under shared control ... let us see what will happen in the future ...
[edit]
If you find that I lost the control of the trap, you will be right ... this is the difference between strategy and tactics ... turn has 4 steps and sometimes you need to make 5 and this can be easily split into two turns, sometimes you cannot split it so easily ... you must not forget the opponent's options.
OK, now the blunder move is already visible. I was thinking about Re5 replacing Ce5 to open the path to camel, it could lead to Cat for camel hostage overloading phant to leave f6 defense. So big advantage for me. But I decided there is a lot of time so the Cat sacrifice is not needed and I could open the path next turn. So fortify both c3 and f3 at first. But I left the Cd5 step on the board instead of replacing it by Rh2 step. This single step allowed arimaa_master to totally break my position.
That's arimaa.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 16th, 2011, 12:59pm by Hippo » |
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arimaaphile
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Re: Big picture concepts?
« Reply #6 on: Jun 14th, 2011, 6:47pm » |
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Hi all,
Thanks for sharing your opinions.
Fritz, I feel my words had unintended consequences so let me clarify what I wanted to say. First, disclaimer. I’m NOT saying in any way that someone hides information or keeps essential knowledge of arimaa hidden from newcomers either implicitly or explicitly. Perhaps any such interpretation of my words arises from miscommunication. However, I understand how you feel (as a writer I went through that kind of a strange feeling too) and I’m sorry to see that happening to you.
Also, my sentence which you quoted was not about the wikibook; it was specifically about megajester’s info link. Sorry if I did not make that clear enough.
As to the wikibook, yes, it is systematized source of information and it is well-written; I do not question that. However, it seems to me, the wikibook is too advanced and there is need for a book/source of information which fills the gap between the wikibook and information/instruction on simple rules. It feels discouraging to learn simple rules playing arimaa and then jump into the wikibook. I do grant that all this experience (discouragement, feeling the book is too advanced for a newcomer) is due to my lack of knowledge (laziness, etc) and has nothing to do with the wikibook. However, that does not answer the question which might be posed by other newcomers: is there a source of information on arimaa which is systematized like wikibook but easier than that introducing only the most essential ideas/concepts in easy to understand format? A source of information which functions as a bridge between instruction about rules and the wikibook.
On another note, I agree with you about difficulty of defining concepts precisely and ranking them. Nevertheless, (just an analogy) difficulty of defining go ideas/concepts does not keep away Janice Kim and Jeong Soo-hyun to write Learn to Play Go: a Master’s Guide to the Ultimate Game. To me, it looks like web-page introduction of arimaa rules corresponds to first few pages of Learn to Play Go book and the wikibook corresponds to 5th, book (the last one) of that series.
And yes, we are learning together. That's why I asked what I asked.
I hope it helps.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 14th, 2011, 6:50pm by arimaaphile » |
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Belteshazzar
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Re: Big picture concepts?
« Reply #7 on: Jun 14th, 2011, 7:38pm » |
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I think I see what you mean about the Wikibook, but it can be improved. Do you think this edit helps, for starters?
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| « Last Edit: Jun 14th, 2011, 11:16pm by Belteshazzar » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Big picture concepts?
« Reply #8 on: Jun 14th, 2011, 11:26pm » |
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Thanks for explaining, arimaaphile. I think I understand now. The Wikibook can indeed be too advanced and too overwhelming at first. There is an intermediate stage between the rules at first, and a thorough explanation of all the major strategic markers later.
There is a tension, when writing about Arimaa strategy, between the order in which things may be most clearly presented and the order in which things are best learned. A beginner to Arimaa should master concepts roughly in order of importance, but this will mean much backtracking and repetition as concepts are seen from different perspectives. For example, it is important to understand hostages and frames as direct means to win material, and later it is important to understand them in terms of the two-threat doctrine, and yet still later in relation to swarms. This return and re-return of ideas makes the overall presentation seem less orderly and systematic than a presentation in which all the material on hostages is collected in one place, all the material on frames in another place, etc.
There is a further tension between clarity and generality. Situations that are perfectly clear are easy to teach and to learn, but seldom arise in practice. Yes, a beginner can complain with justice that the advice he gets is too advanced and too complicated. However, if the teacher gives only well-defined and simple advice, it will normally be inapplicable. Most of the time during an Arimaa game, the beginner may be frustrated that none of the advice he has received so far suggests a move in his particular position.
I flatter myself that Beginning Arimaa handles these tensions a little better than the Arimaa Wikibook, thanks to a more mature perspective on my part when I wrote the latter. Unfortunately Beginning Arimaa covers too much material in too little space to be a true beginner book. The gap between knowing the rules and being ready to absorb a general description of Arimaa strategy remains.
I have been eager for the publication of chessandgo's Arimaa book, mostly for his greater coverage of topics of interest to intermediate players. I see now, however, that there is just as much need for an introductory book that is pitched lower and goes slower. I suppose that knowing how to write such a thing comes only from trying it and seeing what doesn't work and why. Perhaps, since you are a writer yourself, you will some day be interested in filling this need.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 14th, 2011, 11:34pm by Fritzlein » |
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Hippo
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Re: Big picture concepts?
« Reply #9 on: Jun 15th, 2011, 2:56am » |
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OK so I would not write about basic concepts, but about stages of learning  .
At first stage one learns how to see one turn captures and tries to prevent losing big animals too easily (good habbit is to guard two sides of home traps and not to extend too much except by phant).
At second phase one finds that there are longer term strategies to capture pieces. As the elephant could prevent capture at a trap permanently, these strategies all lead to restricting elephant mobility (hostages ... when elephant leaves there would be capture following turn or at near future, elephant pins (frames) ... when elephant leaves the capture is immediate, and elephant blockades ... using a lot of small pieces to block elephant.
The second phase requires knowledge that more resources are needed to got to the position, but later stronger pieces could be replaced by weaker ones (rotation). The elephant restriction leads to advantage only when it paralyses more opponents material than yours (or when you are left with more free material).
Here material means somehow power of the pieces.
At the end of the second phase one is familiar with two turn captures requiring frames subphase with pinned weak piece, and some tricks to force frames/hostages ... froze basket is helpfule here. One learns false protection as well in this phase ... the situation when two trap guards are not enough.
At the third phase one start valuate rabbits much more. It is caused by the fact that at the third phase one started play with stronger opponents where capturing other pieces is much more difficult as they can retreat.
At the fourth phase one learns how to attack enemy traps when enemy is not caution enough and to valuate trades ... it is extremaly hard to capture a piece other way than by exchange ... each plan has several posibilities how to achieve and one should carefully think in long term advantages as relative strength of your and opponent pieces ... number of steps required for realisation of a plan is very important in this stage.
"Where are goals?" sounds as a good question. During the process of material captures learning you must learn how to see one turn goals, goal threats, forced goals and "inevitable goals". It's very difficult to force goal without at least shared controll of an enemy trap.
Once the shared control is established advanced rabbits become very strong. Defender must carefully defend both goal and material. Inevitable goals are situation when there is too many advanced rabbits compared to defenders. Of course there are good defending patterns and risky positions...
At the fifth phase you know when you can start successful cat only attack  ...
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| « Last Edit: Jun 15th, 2011, 6:56pm by Hippo » |
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arimaaphile
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Re: Big picture concepts?
« Reply #10 on: Jun 19th, 2011, 11:25pm » |
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Friends,
Thanks for your contributions. It looks like I have to find another way to explore arimaa than I usually prefer when it comes to board games.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Big picture concepts?
« Reply #11 on: Jun 20th, 2011, 12:34pm » |
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Don't worry; in a few generations Arimaa will have the wealth of choices of books, videos, teachers, and tutorials that chess and Go currently have. We'll catch up in time.
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arimaaphile
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Re: Big picture concepts?
« Reply #12 on: Jun 29th, 2011, 1:43pm » |
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Friends,
I posted this message here simply because I did not know to which section of the forum it belongs to.
I have two questions. Here is the first one.
I was watching commented arimaa games on vimeo.com (WC games) and occasionally I heard commentator use the phrase "hostage basket". I was not able to infer from context or game what that means. Wikibook's glossary does not explain the term either. Is it camel or piece hostage? Or it is something different but connected to that?
My second question is about the way you think when you play. Do you think/play or move your pieces around primarily intuitively or analytically? I know it is impossible to separate them from one another completely but from my experience it seems to me one struggles between making moves based on intuition or self-critical analysis. Especially when situation gets complicated I feel this urge to play through visualizing the next move and "listening" my feelings. If I feel good about the move I just play it without giving a second thought to it or finding some specific reason behind the move. Sometimes I literally force myself to let go next move idea which I feel I should play so that I can take time to think and find reasons why that move and not this move is better.
Any insights appreciated.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Big picture concepts?
« Reply #13 on: Jun 29th, 2011, 2:11pm » |
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A "hostage basket" is usually an elephant and two horses surrounding an opposing horse from three sides, not on a trap, but diagonally adjacent to a trap. As silver I set up a hostage basket on g5 in this game on move 8s.
If the horse is unfrozen, it still can't move away, because it is not strong enough to push away the pieces that hem it in. In that sense it is like a frame, but it is different from a frame in that it doesn't pin the opposing elephant directly to the hemmed-in horse. Someone (Hippo?) originally dubbed it the "Fritz frame", because I popularized its use, but "hostage basket" feels more descriptive to me.
It is difficult to answer your other question; I understand the difference between intuitive and analytic play, but how can I quantify where on the scale I fall? All I know is that I play Arimaa far more intuitively than I play chess. Yes, if I am given extra time for analysis in Arimaa, I will use it to explore various specific continuations, but often this process doesn't produce refutations so much as inform my intuition. When it is time to move, I almost always play something that feels right.
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Nazgand
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Re: Big picture concepts?
« Reply #14 on: Jul 1st, 2011, 2:43pm » |
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on Jun 29th, 2011, 2:11pm, Fritzlein wrote:| A "hostage basket" is usually an elephant and two horses surrounding an opposing horse from three sides, not on a trap, but diagonally adjacent to a trap. As silver I set up a hostage basket on g5 in this game on move 8s. |
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A clever game filled with clever moves. I'm glad to be on the same team.
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