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Topic: Move 31 (Read 4535 times) |
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Manuel
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Re: Move 31
« Reply #15 on: Feb 26th, 2010, 1:07am » |
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on Feb 25th, 2010, 9:02am, Hippo wrote:My first impression is to take the g4 rabbit.
Is our potential goal threat or f6 trap control fight more valuable? |
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If we take the g4 rabbit right now, silver will take the f4 rabbit into the f6 trap and as a bonus threaten both our dog and our horse...
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 31
« Reply #16 on: Feb 26th, 2010, 9:06am » |
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Ok, so maybe
31g de6w Ee5n Dg5n Re1n
31s Rf4s ee4e ef4n hc5e
Maybe then
32g Rf3n Re2n Re3n Re4n
32s hd5s hd4e Rf4s he4e
33g Rd2n Rd3n Rd4e Rf3w
I'm not sure that we can force a capture; the question is: "is our attack stronger in the lines following this 31s than after playing R->f3 on 31g?"
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Nombril
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Re: Move 31
« Reply #17 on: Feb 26th, 2010, 12:01pm » |
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Regarding directly attacking the f6 trap (31g de6w Ee5n Dg5n Re1n)
I still have misgivings about committing our elephant to the f6 trap before we have a rabbit in position as well. (But if no holes are shot in the following analysis, then I am leaning towards this idea.) Both elephants would be tied up at f6, and our horse and other dog are committed to goal defense with all of the advanced silver rabbits. I don't see how to do it, but will Fritzlein come up with a way to use his "free" horse to cause problems?
For the 4th step - is Re1n mandatory? I was wondering about Rh2n, to help keep the two silver rabbits between our horse and the silver elephant.
on Feb 25th, 2010, 10:05am, RonWeasley wrote:I like the awkward position of silver around f6. It will require babysitting by silver e and that gives gold time to capture the g4 rabbit in the future. The h can't do it because then goal pulls the f7 rabbit to f6.
This also creates a small hole on the d-file that may keep the silver h from advancing for at least another move. If it does, we threaten to move a gold rabbit to d7, which will goal the next turn. |
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Do you mean de6 to be pushed n or e ? It seems that if it is pushed w we can't do some of the things you mentioned.
on Feb 26th, 2010, 9:06am, chessandgo wrote:Ok, so maybe
31g de6w Ee5n Dg5n Re1n
31s Rf4s ee4e ef4n hc5e
Maybe then
32g Rf3n Re2n Re3n Re4n
32s hd5s hd4e Rf4s he4e
33g Rd2n Rd3n Rd4e Rf3w
I'm not sure that we can force a capture; the question is: "is our attack stronger in the lines following this 31s than after playing R->f3 on 31g?" |
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In this line, I'd think we would keep the center lanes open to give our elephant the ability to go after the silver horse if it advances to our side of the board. I think we might have to give up the goal attack to make sure silver can't put our rabbit in the way of our elephant. So continuing after
31g de6w Ee5n Dg5n Re1n
31s Rf4s ee4e ef4n hc5e
maybe then
32g Rf3w Re3w Rh2n +1 more step?
Can silver protect both f3 and f6 after that? If not, then I think the answer to C&G's question is that this is a stronger (faster) attack compared to R->f3.
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| « Last Edit: Feb 26th, 2010, 12:02pm by Nombril » |
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 31
« Reply #18 on: Feb 26th, 2010, 12:08pm » |
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on Feb 26th, 2010, 12:01pm, Nombril wrote: So continuing after
31g de6w Ee5n Dg5n Re1n
31s Rf4s ee4e ef4n hc5e
maybe then
32g Rf3w Re3w Rh2n +1 more step?
Can silver protect both f3 and f6 after that? If not, then I think the answer to C&G's question is that this is a stronger (faster) attack compared to R->f3. |
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32s rg4ww hd4e x for example?
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| « Last Edit: Feb 26th, 2010, 12:09pm by chessandgo » |
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Nombril
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Re: Move 31
« Reply #19 on: Feb 27th, 2010, 12:36pm » |
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Hmmm. I think I shall consider that a hole in yesterday's thinking. So I'm back to looking at advancing the rabbits. (31g Re1e Rf1n Rf2n Dg5n) I think the concern here is that if silver can manage a goal defense without the elephant, our elephant will be tied to f6 to protect the dog and rabbit(s) while the silver elephant can attack either of our home traps?
on Feb 25th, 2010, 3:59am, chessandgo wrote:
31s hc5n hc6e de6e hd6e
32g Rf4n Rf3n he6w Ee5n
and
32s Rf5w df6s ee4s or 32s Rf5w df6s Rf4s ee4e
seem to defend.
So maybe 31g de6w Ee5n Dg5n Re1n is indeed better?
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Could we respond with
33g hd6s Ee6w hd5s Ed6s ?
It seems we are mostly talking about two options. Are there any other choices? Are we ignoring our extra cat?
31g Dg5n Ra2e Ca3s ra4s
To take that rabbit on 32g we would have to give up the b3 spot to the dog. But on first glance I find it appealing to have immediate capture threats at 2 traps and the ED attack threat at another.
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 31
« Reply #20 on: Mar 1st, 2010, 6:23am » |
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Closing arguments, please. Vote beginning Tuesday unless more issues come up.
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Hippo
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Re: Move 31
« Reply #21 on: Mar 3rd, 2010, 1:28am » |
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Seems I cannot vote for 4 steps rg4->f3.
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 31
« Reply #22 on: Mar 3rd, 2010, 6:01am » |
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on Mar 3rd, 2010, 1:28am, Hippo wrote:| Seems I cannot vote for 4 steps rg4->f3. |
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Oops. It looked like that move got refuted and discarded in the discussion.
Let me offer this. If anyone thinks we should start the vote again with that move added, please post your desire and we will do it. On the other hand, if nobody wants to vote that as their number one, I would like to proceed without it.
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aaaa
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Re: Move 31
« Reply #23 on: Mar 3rd, 2010, 10:01am » |
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on Mar 3rd, 2010, 6:01am, RonWeasley wrote:| On the other hand, if nobody wants to vote that as their number one, I would like to proceed without it. |
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I know you're trying to be practical here, but it should be pointed out that this goes against the idea behind Condorcet, which finds the compromise candidate based on how it's pairwise assessed with respect to every other candidate, ignoring the absolute position it takes up on the ballots.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 3rd, 2010, 10:02am by aaaa » |
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 31
« Reply #24 on: Mar 3rd, 2010, 10:52am » |
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on Mar 3rd, 2010, 10:01am, aaaa wrote:
I know you're trying to be practical here, but it should be pointed out that this goes against the idea behind Condorcet, which finds the compromise candidate based on how it's pairwise assessed with respect to every other candidate, ignoring the absolute position it takes up on the ballots. |
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Yes that's true. Let me amend my request. If anybody thinks they would rank the rabbit capture anywhere near the top of their rankings, we could do it over.
The reason I'm not just re-voting on this one is that I believe the rabbit capture move will not have an effect on the winning outcome. It conceivably could have an effect on the relative position of the lower ranking moves, but getting that right is not worth the time. I'm making an assumption about other people's preferences and the candidate scoring, so please let me know if I'm wrong enough that we should do it over.
So far, the comments say to me we realize leaving out the rabbit capture make the vote impure, but nobody seems to be saying it will change things enough so that we must re-vote. Please let me know if you don't agree.
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Nombril
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Re: Move 31
« Reply #25 on: Mar 3rd, 2010, 11:33am » |
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There were actually a lot of moves discussed that were left off. (That includes my last suggestion that was offered a bit late to get any discussion.) But, according to the 'about this game' info, "Typically, after about a week of discussion, the Mob Coordinator, RonWeasley, will e-mail Mob members with a ballot containing the most popular suggestions. "
I agree with Ron's assessment that taking the rabbit was not a popular suggestion, it was pointed out that silver's response would be to take our rabbit and end with the elephant threatening our dog and horse. After that, the move was not discussed again.
Ron, I wonder if the "closing arguments" request that you normally send would be a good place to list the moves that you plan to put on the ballot? That would give folks a chance to point out any favorites that are missing.
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 31
« Reply #26 on: Mar 3rd, 2010, 12:41pm » |
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on Mar 3rd, 2010, 11:33am, Nombril wrote:
Ron, I wonder if the "closing arguments" request that you normally send would be a good place to list the moves that you plan to put on the ballot? That would give folks a chance to point out any favorites that are missing. |
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A good suggestion. I will try to do this. I can paste from my move list to highlight any transcription errors.
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 31
« Reply #27 on: Mar 3rd, 2010, 1:35pm » |
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In spite of the irregularities, I ended the voting on schedule. 8 votes producing the winner: de6w Ed5n Dg5n Re1n
So we're going after f6 trap control with torches and pitchforks.
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 31
« Reply #28 on: Mar 4th, 2010, 1:12am » |
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on Feb 26th, 2010, 1:07am, Manuel wrote:
If we take the g4 rabbit right now, silver will take the f4 rabbit into the f6 trap and as a bonus threaten both our dog and our horse... |
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I agree with Ron and Manuel that capturing the rg4 was not a good idea, and I support Ron in not picking this move as a candidate.
Good idea Nombril btw
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Hippo
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Re: Move 31
« Reply #29 on: Mar 4th, 2010, 4:14am » |
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OK, I have spent low time on Mob this move so sorry for confussion ... I was behind firewall when I wanted to recapitulate things and I have spent a lot of time with Fritz/Tron instead.
The choosen move looks well at least according to the discussion  so it is absolutely OK.
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