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   Author  Topic: Rekushu  (Read 14345 times)
omar
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Re: Rekushu
« Reply #15 on: Nov 22nd, 2008, 9:02am »
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I've been meaning to play this against you (The_Jeh; cause I think it's neat to be able to play the game against it's inventor), but we never seem to be in the gamecenter at the same time.
 
Can you tell us a little about the history of how you came to invent this, your motivation, etc.
 
« Last Edit: Nov 22nd, 2008, 9:03am by omar » IP Logged
The_Jeh
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Re: Rekushu
« Reply #16 on: Nov 22nd, 2008, 10:23am »
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I don't know that I can remember. It must have been 2004 that I came up with the idea. (2006 is the last time I edited my computer program, so that is the year Arty listed on his site.) Basically, I was just interested in board games and wanted to create one that had rules the transcendent nature of which make them seem like they were discovered rather than invented. This is the game that came to me, although I cannot remember exactly how I was inspired. Obviously, Go was an influence, although anyone who has played the game will tell you that it is not related, or very distantly related at best.
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The_Jeh
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Re: Rekushu
« Reply #17 on: Nov 22nd, 2008, 3:55pm »
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on Nov 22nd, 2008, 9:02am, omar wrote:
I've been meaning to play this against you (The_Jeh; cause I think it's neat to be able to play the game against it's inventor), but we never seem to be in the gamecenter at the same time.

 
When do you check in, usually? Randomly or predictably?
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clauchau
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Re: Rekushu
« Reply #18 on: Nov 26th, 2008, 4:25am »
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It looks fun from reading the rules. I keep a fond memory of an old video game where your moving point would claim unblemished rectangles.
 
Is the 180 threshold needed ? How would it translate to other board sizes ?
 
The mirror rule is embarrassing. Would the game be interesting on a triangular board with a triangular mesh ? There wouldn't be any draw by symmetry.
 
Is there a way to make the available space continuous instead of discrete ?
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Adanac
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Re: Rekushu
« Reply #19 on: Nov 26th, 2008, 5:43am »
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on Nov 26th, 2008, 4:25am, clauchau wrote:
The mirror rule is embarrassing. Would the game be interesting on a triangular board with a triangular mesh ? There wouldn't be any draw by symmetry.

 
I had a chance to play twice last week, including once against the creator  Wink  It was definitely fun to play, but also very tough to score points against a good defensive player.  The idea of a triangular board also occurred to me, not only to eliminate the mirror rule but also to make it easier to score (3 corners rather than 4).
 
The most interesting aspect about Rekushu that I hadn't expected after reading the rules is that scoring points can clear the board for your opponent.  If your opponent has stones at b1, d1 and d4 then you can block a 3x2 rectangle by playing stones at b2 and b3, for example.  But if you later make a box with a2, a3,  b2, b3 then your opponent can now play at b4 because your blockers have disappeared.  Obviously it's not worthwhile to take the 1x1 square in this case, but in general this tactic adds an extra layer to the strategy.
 
Overall, the game is fun and you definitely need to think several steps ahead to avoid being forked.  The biggest downside I noticed was that it's difficult to come from behind.  Once I fell behind in the score, the board got cluttered up quickly and it was difficult to find any scoring chances to catch up.  I'd be interested to see what a game is like between two highly-skilled players, though, as it would likely be a completely different style of play from the ones I experienced.
« Last Edit: Nov 26th, 2008, 1:55pm by Adanac » IP Logged


Fritzlein
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Re: Rekushu
« Reply #20 on: Nov 26th, 2008, 7:34am »
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on Nov 26th, 2008, 5:43am, Adanac wrote:
It was definitely fun to play, but also very tough to score points against a good defensive player.
But it is possible to force a score against a player who plays only defensively?
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The_Jeh
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Re: Rekushu
« Reply #21 on: Nov 26th, 2008, 9:34am »
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on Nov 26th, 2008, 7:34am, Fritzlein wrote:

But it is possible to force a score against a player who plays only defensively?

 
Hopefully, that is too deep a question to know for sure. Usually, many moves are played before one player finds a way to score. In other words, a player cannot force a score in an obvious way from the beginning. You have to set up a strategic structure first - threaten to make threats. If anyone thinks he can prevent me from scoring by playing purely defensively, I would love to receive a challenge from him sometime.
 
on Nov 26th, 2008, 4:25am, clauchau wrote:
It looks fun from reading the rules. I keep a fond memory of an old video game where your moving point would claim unblemished rectangles.
 
Is the 180 threshold needed ? How would it translate to other board sizes ?
 
The mirror rule is embarrassing. Would the game be interesting on a triangular board with a triangular mesh ? There wouldn't be any draw by symmetry.
 
Is there a way to make the available space continuous instead of discrete ?

 
 
I admit the mirror rules are "embarrassing," but in a real game, they are rarely invoked, and the few times that they are invoked, the likelihood that they would block a point that a player wished to play on is extremely slim. If they are embarrassing, I think they're embarrassing in the same way the ko rule in Go is embarrassing or the 50-moves rule in chess.
 
The triangular version you proposed interests me. However, you may notice that a player can obviously force a score on such a grid, unless one-cell claims are disallowed. And if one-cell claims are disallowed, then my hunch is that defense would be very obvious. I want any forced scoring to be deep enough so as to not be trivially solvable.
 
And what video game was that?
« Last Edit: Nov 26th, 2008, 9:44am by The_Jeh » IP Logged
aaaa
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Re: Rekushu
« Reply #22 on: Nov 26th, 2008, 9:48am »
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on Nov 26th, 2008, 4:25am, clauchau wrote:
I keep a fond memory of an old video game where your moving point would claim unblemished rectangles.

on Nov 26th, 2008, 9:34am, The_Jeh wrote:
And what video game was that?

That would be Qix (or one of its many clones).
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The_Jeh
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Re: Rekushu
« Reply #23 on: Nov 26th, 2008, 3:30pm »
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on Nov 26th, 2008, 9:34am, The_Jeh wrote:

And if one-cell claims are disallowed, then my hunch is that defense would be very obvious.

 
I take it back; the opposite is true. Offense on a triangular grid would be trivial regardless of cell size restrictions.
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Re: Rekushu
« Reply #24 on: Jan 9th, 2009, 3:13am »
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on Jul 26th, 2007, 11:33am, The_Jeh wrote:

 
However, the first player cannot foil an attempt by the second player to continuously play vertically or horizontally opposite, or at a 180 degree rotation. This is because the points involved in these mirrors only come in mutual pairs - B is the mirror/rotation of A, and A is the mirror/rotation of B. In the 90 degree rotations, B is the rotation of A, but A is not the rotation of B.
 
That is why these special rules are needed.

 
If you used a 19x19 Go board, you wouldn't need any special rules. With an odd number of crossings (361, in this case), there is always one crossing which has no symmetries at all - the central one. In fact, the reason why Go uses a board with an odd number of playable intersections is precisely to avoid a very known playing strategy for the second player called -will you guess it?- Mirror Go.
 
It is true that using a Go board would open the door to the possibility of draws, for there would be an even number of tiles, but this problem could easily be avoided by giving the second player the win in case of a tie, which would help to reduce the first player's advantage. You could even randomly choose one tile to be invalidated at the start of every game, which would make ties impossible and incidentally schew stereotyped openings when your game becomes a matter of endless study for an ever-growing number of Rekushu Grand Masters... Wink
 
By the way, would it be any possibility for you to share your Rekushu playing program with us? It'd be very nice in order to test your game extensively, which I would do with pleasure.
« Last Edit: Jan 13th, 2009, 12:53am by gatsby » IP Logged
The_Jeh
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Re: Rekushu
« Reply #25 on: May 29th, 2009, 6:34pm »
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Megamau treated me to a game the other day, so I thought it was high time I annotated a game to try to create a spark. Of course, I do not pretend to know what either of us were thinking during the game. I know my analysis is at this point underdeveloped and inaccurate.
 
Black: megamau (unrated)
White: The_Jeh (1294)
Board: 14x14
Time: 20 min + 10 sec/move
URL: http://gc1.iggamecenter.com/gm.phpgid=63&sid=76170&place=0&l ang=en
 
1. J12 G07
2. H07v G12
3. E07 C03
4. E04 G05
     This move creates the threat of a fork at F07.
5. E11
     Black ignores the threat, because this move creates more potent counterplay.
5 ... E08
     White disrupts the line of black stones.
6. H04
     This is a strong move as the E04, H04, H07, and J12 stones are starting to create an offensive structure. Also, Black seeks to allow White's stones as little breathing room as possible.
6 ... I05
     White defends against the aforementioned structure and also has ideas of threats in conjunction with the G05 and G07 stones.
7. J09
     Keeping up the offensive pressure.
7. ... I09
     A move that partially defends against Black's threats while at the same time creating offense in conjunction with G12, G07, and E08.
8. M09
     Creates the threat of 9. M12xJ09-M12(9).
8. ... K09
     White has no choice but to block black's threat to gain points.
9. M04
     Black continues to build up a plan of attack. The E04, H04, M04, and M09 stones are well-aligned.
9. ... K04
     White disrupts Black's structure in a way that also starts to align White's own stones.
10. G04
     Those four white stones were looking suspicious, and now F07 doesn't work.
10. ... G06
     White threatens to take two points with I06, and at the same time White threatens a fork at F06.
11. F04
      Black defends by creating a larger counter-threat at F07.
11. ... E03
     This move defends against F07, because if 12. F07xE04-F07(3), then 12. ... C08xB03-E08(10). This move is a better defense than to block Black's threat directly, because it also disrupts the threat of a fork at F03.
12. F07xE04-F07(3)
     Black fails to see white's threat. Throughout the rest of the game, the first-time player takes pains not to allow such a trick to catch him twice.
12. ... C08xC03-E08(10)
13. H06 K07
     This is better than the empty F06.
14. K06 B02
15. H11 G10
16. J11
     A clever tactical find by Black.
16 ... I12
     White defends, but...
17. M11
     Recreates the dual threats of scoring at M12 or forking at N09.
17. ... K11
     The correct defense in the situation, creating the most opportunity for counteraction.
18. L09
     Black chooses to both block L09 and create a fork at the same time. Seems logical.
18. ... L07
     An attempt to block both threats at the same time. First, it blocks the larger threat of L04. Second, if Black plays L11xL09-M11(2), white simply cancels the points by scoring at L09. Or does he?
19. L11xL09-M11(2)
      Black ignores White's counterthreat, and rightfully so, for if White counters at L09, then Black scores three points at K07. Then after White continues by scoring two points at I06, Black will have gained a net total of one point.
19. ... L04h
     An inaccuracy. Black has just gained a net two points. Why not follow the line mentioned above, where Black will only gain one point?
20. L06 J07
21. K08 K05
22. J04 K04
     Scoring at L05 would be a mistake due to 23. L04.
23. M06
     Defends against L03 by creating the follow-up scoring threat of L04.
23. ... M07
24. M08 B12
     White decides it's time for fresh action. This move begins an offensive network in conjunction with the G12 and B02 stones.
25. E02 G03
26. B08
     If your defensive moves double as offense, you are more likely to gain an advantage. This move is an example, as it both intercepts White's stones and works with the G08 and E11 stones.
26. ... G13
     This fork was just waiting in the wings.
27. E13
     This blocks White's larger threat.
27. ... I13xG12-I13(2)
28. H12xH11-J12(2)
     Black cancels out White's scoring. Note that no scoring can be done at H13 because White has a claimed tile at G12-H13.
28. ... E10
      With the idea of G09.
29. J02
     Black delays the action in the top-left.
29. ... I02
30. H11 G09
31. H08
     Guards against E09, but not I10. Better might have been H10, where scoring at E09 is followed up by scoring at E10.
31. ... I10xG09-I10(2)
     The score is now 14-7 in favor of White.
32. G09 F09
33. E12
     Scoring at H09 is easily made meaningless by follow-up tactics by White.
33. ... F12
34. C12 D12
35. H09xG08-H09(1) I07
36. H05
     The idea is that 36. ... J05xI05-J07(2) is now followed by 37. J05xH04-J05(2). Neither player at this time sees White's follow-up strike at G04!
36. ... G09
     A nice little fork.
37. G11 F07xF07-G09(2)
38. C03 J05xI05-J07(2)
     Now White gets wise to the tactics.
39. J05xH04-J05(2) G04xG03-K04(4)
     The score is now 22-10 in favor of White.
40. M02 M03
41. K13 G03
42. C11 C10
43. F04 F03
44. G02 K02
45. I07 I08h
     There exist tactics that will cancel out Black's I06 idea.
46. I06xH06-I07(1) K04
     Also possible is 46. ... H06. After 47. H05 G07 48. H07 F06, White will gain a point. This little 3x3 maneuver is a recurring pattern.
47. L03 N07
     Scoring at L05 would have been a mistake.
48. N08h L05xK04-L05(1)
     White does not fear L04 now, because his previous move at N07 creates a follow-up strike at N03.
49. L05 K05
50. M05xL05-M06(1) M06
51. K14 J13
     Stopping E14, but Black has an ingenious move up his sleeve.
52. M13!
     White cannot stop both M14 and N13.
52. ... M12
     Of course, White defends against the larger threat and tries to create as much counterplay as possible.
53. M14x K13-M14(2) K12
54. N13
     Stopping M11 via the follow-up M13.
54. ... L06xL06-M07(1)
55. C02 D02
56. M09 N09
57. C09 C08
58. M11 G07
59. H05 F06
60. F07 F05xF05-G06(1)
61. G05 G04
62. B03 B04
63. B05 J12
     Black is down 14 points to 25, and there is not enough potential left to overcome such a deficit at this stage in the game. Black resigns.
    
« Last Edit: May 29th, 2009, 6:45pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
Arimabuff
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Re: Rekushu
« Reply #26 on: May 30th, 2009, 5:21am »
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on May 29th, 2009, 6:34pm, The_Jeh wrote:
...Of course, I do not pretend to know what either of us were thinking during the game...

Well, I assume you know what YOU were thinking...  Wink
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The_Jeh
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Re: Rekushu
« Reply #27 on: May 30th, 2009, 7:03am »
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on May 30th, 2009, 5:21am, Arimabuff wrote:

Well, I assume you know what YOU were thinking...  Wink

 
Well, one does forget.  Smiley
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Fritzlein
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Re: Rekushu
« Reply #28 on: Jun 3rd, 2009, 4:35pm »
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Thanks, John, for posting the moves to a game of Rekushu with some commentary.  That's a great way for a newcomer like me to get off the ground.  Unfortunately, I don't have a 20x20 board handy to replay the moves, and I can't figure out how to replay it on iggamecenter.  The URL http://gc1.iggamecenter.com/gm.phpgid=63&sid=76170&place=0&l ang=en gives me a 404.  I tried to sit down at a Rekushu board at iggamecenter to enter the moves manually, but it won't let me play against myself.  Also I found the game in your game history (assuming it finished 5/28) but from your game list I can't get to a board for replaying.  Any suggestions?
« Last Edit: Jun 3rd, 2009, 4:39pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

The_Jeh
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Re: Rekushu
« Reply #29 on: Jun 4th, 2009, 2:28pm »
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Hmmm... The game must disappear from iggamecenter's archives after a period of time. I will try to find a place online to view or replay it. Otherwise, remember that the game was played on a 14x14 board, not 20x20.
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