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   Author  Topic: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games  (Read 489953 times)
MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #165 on: May 31st, 2010, 6:41am »

on May 31st, 2010, 2:13am, christianF wrote:

 
I'm not sure what you mean nor what your 'pinocchio' association means, but it is evident that you're enjoying youself in your own way.
 
The remark I made about disallowing something or to make it a 'red card' offence is a general remark and might be worth thinking about, even by a brilliant inventor such as you, because, frankly, I don't think you quite understand.
We're still eagerly awaiting your insights regarding the game, instead of constantly repeating your smallminded remarks from the sideline Kiss .

Right on all counts, Christian, especially about not understanding. Smiley  I barely made it through the original rule sheet, never mind the cappucino, red flags, and "punishment" for naughty players.  By the way, "penalty" might be a better word choice.  A game is supposed to be fun, not punishing.
 
I totally apologize for the "sideline" commentary.  Somehow I can't resist goading you but believe me there's no malice at heart.  It's really just the volume of the current, epic rule set I'm commenting on.  It's like the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico.
 
I do believe you'll get it all straightened out, whatever it takes.  I wish I could help but I'm incapable of focusing on voluminous rules.
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #166 on: May 31st, 2010, 7:10am »

on May 31st, 2010, 6:41am, MarkSteere wrote:
I totally apologize for the "sideline" commentary. Somehow I can't resist goading you but believe me there's no malice at heart. It's really just the volume of the current, epic rule set I'm commenting on. It's like the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico.
 
I do believe you'll get it all straightened out, whatever it takes. I wish I could help but I'm incapable of focusing on voluminous rules.
No harm done, and closer investigation will show that the 'volume' here and the 'rules' are two different things.
 
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #167 on: May 31st, 2010, 7:51am »

on May 31st, 2010, 7:10am, christianF wrote:

No harm done, and closer investigation will show that the 'volume' here and the 'rules' are two different things.

I won't even consider conducting any sort of "investigation" until at least 12 consecutive hours transpire without any increasingly voluminous version updates.  I'm still waiting for the dust to settle.
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #168 on: May 31st, 2010, 8:00am »

on May 31st, 2010, 7:51am, MarkSteere wrote:

I won't even consider conducting any sort of "investigation" until at least 12 consecutive hours transpire without any increasingly voluminous version updates. I'm still waiting for the dust to settle.
I reluctantly admit we share a certain sense of humor too. "Cappucino, red flags, and 'punishment' for naughty players" that was funny, and of course you're right: I meant 'penalty'.
 
But all the updates concerned only one problem: cappuccino Wink
« Last Edit: May 31st, 2010, 8:03am by christianF » IP Logged
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #169 on: May 31st, 2010, 8:16am »

I must admit that I still don't know how to write that word Cheesy
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #170 on: May 31st, 2010, 9:52am »

on May 31st, 2010, 8:16am, Arty wrote:
I must admit that I still don't know how to write that word Cheesy
Europe and soccer go back a long way. I even remember catenaccio from the time it was actually played. It was finally wiped off the scene by the Dutch with their system of total football that should have brought them the '74 world cup.
It didn't Angry
 
It led to the dutch definition of soccer: "Soccer is a game between 2x11 players and Germany wins".
 
Barring South America, the rest of the world was still oblivious of it at the time I think.
« Last Edit: May 31st, 2010, 10:04am by christianF » IP Logged
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #171 on: Jun 1st, 2010, 7:23am »

on May 31st, 2010, 7:51am, MarkSteere wrote:
I won't even consider conducting any sort of "investigation" until at least 12 consecutive hours transpire without any increasingly voluminous version updates. I'm still waiting for the dust to settle.
It did, quite unexpectedly. Whereas I feel that shielding would have solved the problems, Arty came up with a rule against 'clustering' that has a similar effect, but with a less 'mathy' character, as he put it. The advantages are:
 
1. The rule is simpler.
2. It implicitly covers "king's move" obstruction, so the obstruction rule, not to mention the algorithm checking it, can be simplified too. For the Zillions machine this is definitely a plus.
 
So HanniBall now behaves as intended: as a soccer game that's fun to play despite considerable depth Wink .
It has a nice selection of very novel tactics as well as great variety in the ways they interact.
You're all invited to play at iGGC.
« Last Edit: Jun 1st, 2010, 7:24am by christianF » IP Logged
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #172 on: Jun 1st, 2010, 8:30am »

on Jun 1st, 2010, 7:23am, christianF wrote:

So HanniBall now behaves as intended

[Resetting 12 hour timer...]
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #173 on: Jun 1st, 2010, 8:51am »

on Jun 1st, 2010, 8:30am, MarkSteere wrote:
[Resetting 12 hour timer...]
In the meantime we're eagerly awaiting 'Mad Queens' Wink
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #174 on: Jun 1st, 2010, 9:20am »

on Jun 1st, 2010, 8:51am, christianF wrote:

In the meantime we're eagerly awaiting 'Mad Queens' Wink

There was never a flaw in Mad Bishops, Christian.  I've changed the starting setup a couple of times, a 100% cosmetic change.  I've also released Mad Rooks, essentially a cosmetic variation as well.
 
http://www.marksteeregames.com/Mad_Rooks_rules.pdf
 
Not that I've never released a flawed game.  I have.  But Mad Bishops isn't one of them, and I've retracted the ones that were.  If you want to pick on an MSG flawed game, you've got some waiting and hoping ahead of you.
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #175 on: Jun 1st, 2010, 9:48am »

on Jun 1st, 2010, 9:20am, MarkSteere wrote:
There was never a flaw in Mad Bishops, Christian. I've changed the starting setup a couple of times, a 100% cosmetic change. I've also released Mad Rooks, essentially a cosmetic variation as well.
Are we getting paranoid?
I never said anything about a flaw in Mad Bishops, although the thought may bother you, and I'm fully reassured about Mad Rooks now that you've called it a 'cosmetic' variation.  
 
In fact it's hardly even that, see grids Tongue
 
So when are we going to see Mad Queens?
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #176 on: Jun 1st, 2010, 10:36am »

on Jun 1st, 2010, 9:48am, christianF wrote:
So when are we going to see Mad Queens?

A brief history of Mad Bishops:
 
In January I designed Flume, kind of a simplification of Dots and Boxes.  Instead of two types of "tokens" - line segments and colored boxes - you only have one.  Stones.
 
http://www.marksteeregames.com/Flume_Go_rules.pdf
 
This led to a brief flurry of interest in combinatorial game theory and exposure to the ultra simple games the theorists work with - combinatorial games, as strictly defined, such as Clobber.
 
Soon I needed to have a combinatorial game of my own, which has so far turned into three: Jostle, Colonnade and Mad Bishops (or rooks, but not queens).
 
http://www.marksteeregames.com/MSG_abstract_games.html
 
Normally a combinatorial game wouldn't pass muster at MSG and I had to bend some long standing rules to make it happen.  Mad Bishops in particular - I rejected it and came back to it at least twice.  Turns out it's a rather typical combinatorial game with quick and dirty play.
 
Christian, I don't know where you're going with the "Mad Queens" but if you're saying I'm a stupid designer, this would seem to contradict your statements from earlier in the discussion:
 
"or your own Oust, which is a stroke of genius"
 
"even by a brilliant inventor such as you"
 
I understand, you're frustrated over the Hanniball debacle.  Christian, I was just having a little fun.  I don't want to become the target of your wrath.  I should probably just butt out of the discussion and let you work out your Hanniball issues in peace.  Sorry  Sad
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #177 on: Jun 1st, 2010, 11:52am »

on Jun 1st, 2010, 10:36am, MarkSteere wrote:
I understand, you're frustrated over the Hanniball debacle. Christian, I was just having a little fun. I don't want to become the target of your wrath. I should probably just butt out of the discussion and let you work out your Hanniball issues in peace. Sorry  Sad

Debacle no less, now you're really funny. Hanniball is excellently accomodated, thank you.
 
One thing about consistency: you seem to have some compulsory need to rub people the wrong way. No problem with me, they often deserve it (none of your 'targets' here implied).
 
But style then dictates that you should also be able to take 'a little fun', shouldn't you? Wink
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #178 on: Jun 1st, 2010, 3:14pm »

Quite right, Christian.  Mad Queens it is.  Smiley
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #179 on: Jun 4th, 2010, 2:40am »

Oops, strategy ...
 
One of the criteria for a game to be called a 'strategy game', according to mindsports, is that there should be "advantageous sub-goals" to be achieved, as "calculable singposts along the way".
 
So I had characterized HanniBall as leaning towards the tactical. It seems I was a bit off the mark there too. Not that it's suddenly grandmaster stuff, but I'd like to give an example of such a 'calculable sub-goal'. Courtesy of Arty Sandler who introduced is as an extreme form of the 'new' catenaccio.
 
The 'new' catenaccio, curbed by Arty's rule against clustering, is a strategy among strategies, instead of being a pain where the sun don't shine.
 
This extreme form is called "Launchpad strategy". Consider this, a bare bones example:
 

 
The 'launchpad' is formed by the Elephant with Ball and the Keeper: the Elephant shoots the Ball to the Keeper, and the Ball can ricochet all the way to b8 or g8.
The Horse on h12, together with the Keeper, shields the ball against knight's moves, so to enter, you'd need king's moves.
 
The threat is to shoot the Ball to say g8 and go running with the Lion towards the white goal. But you can't make it with the three moves left, so with enough defensive pieces nearby, the black Lion would be left stranded on the doorway, and vulnarable to capture. But white must always measure his defense: if the Lion cannot be captured it's a big danger so close to the goal.
 
Or the threat is to shoot the Ball to b8, where the white Lion shouldn't be in the first place (on the ricochet line). After that Horse b12 can capture and even get rid of the ball.
 
The opponent's goal is a freezone against capture, so a white piece on square 'X' would come in handy to break up the launchpad, but what piece?
 
Not a Horse, although it always can hop from 'X' to 'O' if the latter is vacant. But it can't access the ball.
Not an Elephant because it's way to slow and a piece on g14 leaves it way away from the ball.
 
So it should be a Lion: in the current situation a Lion could hop to 'O', grab the Ball (capturing the Elephant in the process), move bach to 'O' and shoot the Ball (or move with the Ball) back into the goal.
 
So black would be advised to get a piece on 'O', but then g14 must be vacated lest clustering would occur.
 
So put the Elephant that is on g14 to 'O' and white's Lion needs three moves to get to the Ball. That's risky unless you can get the Ball out of the way.
To do that white might use the 'black' launchpad against its owner and ricochet the Ball via the black Keeper to a place where it is least accessible for black and most accessible to white.
There's a lot to consider.
 
An attacking Lion on a safe spot is is a real thorn in the side of this kind of black strategy, but the drawback is that white must do without that Lion in the center, where Lions are most at home. It implicitly weakens the defense.
« Last Edit: Jun 4th, 2010, 5:58am by christianF » IP Logged
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