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   Author  Topic: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games  (Read 489937 times)
MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #390 on: Apr 5th, 2011, 9:54am »

In my case I'd be roasted alive.
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #391 on: Apr 10th, 2011, 4:22am »

The new Symple applet is ready, please have a look:
Ed van Zon (NL) - Benedikt Rosenau (DE)
 
Also, my reflections on Symple have crystallized:
About Symple
 
Did something change? Yes, it was rather arrogant of me to try to set a fixed penalty, where the choice of penalty has such a profound impact on the game. So the group penalty can be set from 2-32 prior to a game and will be displayed accordingly.
 
Any other reflections? Yes, I've played less than ten games (the reason being that I prefer Sygo, and I'm also playing Havannah quite a lot to keep my wits in shape for next year's challenge). The story of Symple's genesis is well documented.
 
Symple shows what this thread was about in the first place: I invented the game without touching a stone, and predict how it will behave.
Some games allow one to do that. It's not even very difficult. You only need a deep (if not obsessive) interest in the workings of organic mechanisms.
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #392 on: Apr 25th, 2011, 2:27pm »

The mindsports update is progressing nicely.
In the process we've also published a work in progress called On the Evolution of Draughts Variants.
 
Thought I'd mention it Smiley
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #393 on: Apr 25th, 2011, 11:07pm »

on Apr 25th, 2011, 2:27pm, christianF wrote:
The mindsports update is progressing nicely.
In the process we've also published a work in progress called On the Evolution of Draughts Variants.
 
Thought I'd mention it Smiley

Looks good  Smiley  Thanks for including Cage in that.
 
Couple of nitpicky points:
 
* "Draughts are the youngest" --> is the youngest
 
* "Checkers basically took of on an 8x8"  -->  took off
 
* "columns reaching the back row have to sit it out unless capture"  --> unless captured?  Not sure what you're trying to say here but it seems grammatically incorrect.
 
* "We have not listed the backdraws"  --> drawbacks
 
* "move into a direction" --> move in a direction
 
* "One may argue that the the increasing"  Syntax.
 
* "With 30 stones each" --> men each?
 
* "but it must end the move on the behind" grammar
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #394 on: Apr 26th, 2011, 2:16am »

Thanks, I don't consider that nitpicking but useful comments.
 
The Cage section isn't complete yet (lacking a couple of examples). Same holds for a couple of traditionals. More applets will be added by and by and they will be used for examples too, rather than more diagrams.
 
on Apr 25th, 2011, 11:07pm, MarkSteere wrote:
* "columns reaching the back row have to sit it out unless capture"  --> unless captured?  Not sure what you're trying to say here but it seems grammatically incorrect.

 
Pieces that reach the backrow cannot move in Stapeldammen: movement is forwards only and there is no promotion. However, they can be forced to make a capture (capture being mandatory, and forwards as well as backwards). Such a capture will (unless it also ends on the backrow) bring them back 'in the field'.
 
This is unusual and aesthetically questionable, but the strategical implications are quite fascinating.
« Last Edit: Apr 26th, 2011, 2:25am by christianF » IP Logged
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #395 on: May 2nd, 2011, 1:52pm »

Ingo Althofer posted this at the LG forum:
 
Quote:
"Richard Lorentz is the father of Havannah bot Wanderer_c. For three weeks, Richard was my guest at Jena University. We had a wonderful time."
 
Prof. Richard Lorentz - Jena, April 2011
« Last Edit: May 2nd, 2011, 4:14pm by christianF » IP Logged
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #396 on: May 5th, 2011, 7:20am »

The Frisian Daughts, Turkish Daughts and  Armenian Daughts sections are, if not complete, at least reasonably informative now.
 
Frisian uses the 10x10 International applet, but in 'frisian mode', whereby pieces that are captured orthogonally are highlighted the same way as those captured diagonally.
 
Turkish and Armenian use the Dameo applet, but in 'vacuum cleaner' mode, whereby captured pieces are removed in the process of capture. Like a dog on a cookie trail.
 
These applets will shortly be available for turnbased play too.
 
The Go and Sygo applets already are available for turnbased play, and they've been updated too now. Here are two games in the new outfit:
 
Go: Alexander Dinerchtein - Rob van Zeijst
Sygo: Rendong You - Christian Freeling
« Last Edit: May 6th, 2011, 12:07pm by christianF » IP Logged
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #397 on: May 10th, 2011, 3:15pm »

The column checkers section of the "Evolution" is taking shape. Please have a look at the new Bashni applet - is that a nice applet or is that a nice applet Cheesy .
 
Except for Lasca, all column checkers games (Bashni, Stapeldammen, Emergo, Hexemergo, Grabber) can now be played at mindsports.
Hexemergo will soon have a new applet in the new 'house style' too, and Lasca will not take long either.
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #398 on: May 23rd, 2011, 6:16am »

Guess what, the new Lasca applet is ready. No build-in 'legal' yet, so you'll have to abide by the rules, but a nice display (we think).
 
Shogi has a new applet too. The western symbols may seem difficult at first, but the effort is well worth the reward Wink
 
This thread has drifted somewhat off topic I fear, as I have drifted away from inventing games. I merely acknowledge the fact, there's no plan or ambition either way. Meanwhile I recommend interested readers to have a closer look at Symple and Sygo. The first is a game more worthy of contemplation than would seem to be the case, the second is a great game. Be sure you belong to those who can later say "I told you so!"
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #399 on: May 24th, 2011, 3:35pm »

on May 23rd, 2011, 6:16am, christianF wrote:

...I have drifted away from inventing games.

Me too.  I still muse over game concepts during idle moments like while I'm driving or getting massaged by a brutal Chinese lady, but I'm not throwing myself into design.  It's summertime.  Time to be outside riding a bicyle, or inside practicing tenor sax.  
 
on May 23rd, 2011, 6:16am, christianF wrote:

[Sygo] is a great game.

A claim I have no doubt of, however oft repeated.  Trouble is, there are a lot of "great games" out there now.  We're in the middle of a great game explosion.
 
In my case, I try to make my games robust.  This in itself doesn't make a game great.  It's just that *if* the game turns out to be great, like Oust, you know you won't have a problem with draws since draws were designed out from the outset.  [Oust is naturally finite.  No bs ko type rules are needed.]  And you won't have a problem with first move advantage since it's extremely scalable.  Oust can be played on *any* board, even or odd sized.
 
Oust rule sheet:
  http://www.marksteeregames.com/Oust_rules.pdf
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #400 on: May 25th, 2011, 5:10am »

on May 24th, 2011, 3:35pm, MarkSteere wrote:
Trouble is, there are a lot of "great games" out there now.  We're in the middle of a great game explosion.
 
In my case, I try to make my games robust.  This in itself doesn't make a game great.

 
In my opinion the criteria for a great game have been excellently summarized by J. Mark Thompson in his short essay Defining the Abstract.
 
If put against these criteria, Symple and Hex fail, although I've argued otherwise by leaving 'drama' out of the equation, because neither lacks clarity or depth or decisiveness. Sygo on the other hand meets all criteria Mark Thompson considers essential.
 
Of course Mark's criteria may not be everybody's, but they are clear and concise, which suits me well in a realm where all criteria are inherently subjective and arbitrary.
 
Maybe 'AI resistance' would nowadays qualify as an additional essential criterion.
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #401 on: May 25th, 2011, 10:04am »

on May 25th, 2011, 5:10am, christianF wrote:

In my opinion the criteria for a great game have been excellently summarized by J. Mark Thompson in his short essay Defining the Abstract.

The celebrity of Mark Thompson's article seems to have taken on a life of its own, inexplicably.  It's a lovely, well written document, but little more than a rehash of pre-existing definitions.  
 
on May 25th, 2011, 5:10am, christianF wrote:

Of course Mark's criteria may not be everybody's, but they are clear and concise, which suits me well in a realm where all criteria are implicitly subjective and arbitrary.

Mark Thompson's criteria are themselves subjective and arbitrary.  There are objective, measurable quantities in games such as skill level, draw rate, and first move advantage, as well as the inter-dependencies among these quantities.
 
No game has more drama than Oust, at least that I've ever played.  As far as decisiveness, all of my games are finite-decisive.  You can't get more decisive than that.  There certainly could be a tie in Sygo though, right?  Conspicuously absent from the Sygo rule sheet is any mention of draws.  Ignoring draws won't make them go away.
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #402 on: May 25th, 2011, 12:13pm »

on May 25th, 2011, 10:04am, MarkSteere wrote:

There are objective, measurable quantities in games such as skill level, draw rate, and first move advantage, as well as the inter-dependencies among these quantities.

Mark's essay is not an attempt at completeness.  
Skill level, as a criterion, reveals itself better with an increasing player base.  
Given the importance of first/second player advantage I'm a bit surprised that a very intricate balancing system as featured in Symple and Sygo draws so little response (I'm not saying it gets little attention, judging from the view count). Your bashing it may not have helped. Then again, some like disagree with you, so the reverse may also hold.
Your dislike of draws is well documented. However, not everybody agrees that draws should be impossible in great game. Draughts players even consider them essential! Out of necessity Tongue .
 
on May 25th, 2011, 10:04am, MarkSteere wrote:
There certainly could be a tie in Sygo though, right?  Conspicuously absent from the Sygo rule sheet is any mention of draws.  Ignoring draws won't make them go away.
Sygo is not draw proof. Also, none of the traditional great games is draw proof. Draws are not an a priori problem. In Draughts it's clearly an a posteriori problem.
 
In Sygo draws will never be a problem, but ironically we've come very close in one game.
You were right about the rule sheet, but wrong about the 'conspicuously' - I actually thought I'd mentioned it (I now have).
Of course the possibility of neutral points was mentioned, which impicitly allows for a draw.
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #403 on: May 25th, 2011, 1:35pm »

on May 25th, 2011, 12:13pm, christianF wrote:

Given the importance of first/second player advantage I'm a bit surprised that a very intricate balancing system as featured in Symple and Sygo draws so little response

You haven't really proved or even made a strong case as to why Sygo is so extraordinarily balanced.  You've demonstrated semantic wizardry worthy of Cameron Browne, but nothing that speaks of logic, so far.
 
on May 25th, 2011, 12:13pm, christianF wrote:
 
Your bashing [Sygo] may not have helped.

lol, Now it's my fault Sygo's a dud.
 
Newsflash: Me not liking a game isn't a red flag for anyone.
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #404 on: May 25th, 2011, 2:25pm »

on May 25th, 2011, 1:35pm, MarkSteere wrote:

You haven't really proved or even made a strong case as to why Sygo is so extraordinarily balanced. You've demonstrated semantic wizardry worthy of Cameron Browne, but nothing that speaks of logic, so far.

My case for Sygo's balancing mechanism can be found in About Symple - it's the same mechanism. Your comments till now had little to do with logical arguments, but a lot with mockery, sloganism and misrepresenting content. I guess that's more of a personality issue though. It must be hard to escape Mark Steere when he's inside Roll Eyes .
« Last Edit: May 25th, 2011, 2:26pm by christianF » IP Logged
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