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Topic: Bot Bashing Records Discussion (Read 10187 times) |
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Arimabuff
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #75 on: Apr 12th, 2008, 2:50am » |
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on Apr 12th, 2008, 1:09am, 99of9 wrote:
Here's a game to consider: EMHHDDCRRRR with silver against shallowblue in game 73995 http://www.arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=73995&s=b . Do people think it should count? The key question is move 4w where the bot pulls my dog toward a trap (which I later sacrifice).
As far as I can tell, it satisfies the rules by 99of9, mistre, and ArimanatorV1 (and maybe aaaa, depending on how he defines "as few steps as possible" - in fact by some definitions of that he would require us to get the bot to help pull pieces toward the traps!). |
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As I told you in a game comment I renounced my idea of a "few steps" when I realized both that I wasn't getting anywhere and that it was too vague of a rule to be acceptable. Instead, I played all of my games hence, in the spirit of never get any pull (or push) from the bot nor put in "extra steps" during the sacrificing sequence. And Instead of insisting constantly on a “modus vivendi rule” that I proposed once and NEVER benefited from you'd be well advised to take notice of my straightforwardness ever since.
I think if we authorize the kind of thing you would like us to that leaves the gate open for any kind of abuse. I never agreed to the “order” rule though, If you don't use actively your pieces before sacrificing them or if they don't get pulled by the bot's pieces then their value doesn't matter and what counts is the total of your sacrifices at the end of the sequence.
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99of9
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #76 on: Apr 12th, 2008, 3:05am » |
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EMHHDDCRRRRR against shallowblue with gold in game 73999
EMHHDDCRRRR against shallowblue with silver in either game 73995 or game 74015 depending on whether it's allowable for bots to help pull your piece toward a suicide trap (thanks to arimanator who abstained from matching this record by his rules to give me time to convert it, so that rule ambiguity wouldn't flare up again).
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| « Last Edit: Apr 12th, 2008, 4:04am by 99of9 » |
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99of9
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #77 on: Apr 12th, 2008, 5:21am » |
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on Apr 11th, 2008, 11:30am, Fritzlein wrote:| 99of9, do you think beating ShallowBlue with only HRR in the initial setup is possible? |
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After this game http://www.arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=73999&s=w I am now certain that instant-handicap with only CRR against shallowblue is possible, and could predict the exact moves if it would help you (there is a rabbit I could have left out, but I did not have time to suicide it).
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| « Last Edit: Apr 12th, 2008, 5:23am by 99of9 » |
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Arimabuff
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #78 on: Apr 12th, 2008, 5:55am » |
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on Apr 12th, 2008, 3:05am, 99of9 wrote:EMHHDDCRRRRR against shallowblue with gold in game 73999
EMHHDDCRRRR against shallowblue with silver in either game 73995 or game 74015 depending on whether it's allowable for bots to help pull your piece toward a suicide trap (thanks to arimanator who abstained from matching this record by his rules to give me time to convert it, so that rule ambiguity wouldn't flare up again). |
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Ever hear of Occam's razor? When you have, two solutions to a problem take the one involving the less convoluted set of rules and it doesn't hurt that that solution is also the less controversial.
Number 74015 is the game to choose, definitely.
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Arimabuff
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #79 on: Apr 12th, 2008, 5:58am » |
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on Apr 12th, 2008, 5:21am, 99of9 wrote:
I for one believe that it's a great deal more impressive to achieve CRRR WITHOUT the bot's help than HRR with a lot of it.
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99of9
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #80 on: Apr 12th, 2008, 6:15am » |
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on Apr 12th, 2008, 5:58am, Arimabuff wrote:
I for one believe that it's a great deal more impressive to achieve CRRR WITHOUT the bot's help than HRR with a lot of it. |
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Excluding the issue of bot help, DAPE agrees with you that CRRR is harder than HRR, but FAME thinks the opposite.
This raises the issue of which handicaps are actually better than others. So far everyone has always tried for an obviously better handicap, but at some point someone might try different combinations. I suggest we only replace an earlier handicap if the majority of published material eval systems agree it is better.
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Arimabuff
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #81 on: Apr 12th, 2008, 6:31am » |
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EMHHDDCRRRRR (IOW there was only CRRR left) against shallowblue with silver in game 74022.
Thanks in large part to 99of9 who didn't try too hard to beat me to the punch. 
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Arimabuff
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #82 on: Apr 12th, 2008, 6:39am » |
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on Apr 12th, 2008, 6:15am, 99of9 wrote:
...I suggest we only replace an earlier handicap if the majority of published material eval systems agree it is better. |
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I believe the right thing to do, would be to publish a list as exhaustive as possible of handicap inequalities, which would give people an idea about what beats what in matter of handicap.
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99of9
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #83 on: Apr 12th, 2008, 6:48am » |
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EMHHDDCRRRRRR (IOW with only CRR) against shallowblue with gold in game 74023.
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99of9
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #84 on: Apr 12th, 2008, 6:51am » |
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on Apr 12th, 2008, 6:39am, Arimabuff wrote:
I believe the right thing to do, would be to publish a list as exhaustive as possible of handicap inequalities, which would give people an idea about what beats what in matter of handicap. |
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The problem is there are a combinatorial number of possible choices of material, so the list would be extremely long, and there would be many cases where people would argue about which was actually better.
The advantage of using the computer evaluation methods is that anyone can check them out quickly and definatively:
http://arimaa.janzert.com/fame.html
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Arimabuff
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #85 on: Apr 12th, 2008, 7:03am » |
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on Apr 12th, 2008, 6:48am, 99of9 wrote:| EMHHDDCRRRRRR (IOW with only CRR) against shallowblue with gold in game 74023. |
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Awesome!
And complying EVEN to aaaa's most drastic rules at that! 
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99of9
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #86 on: Apr 12th, 2008, 7:05am » |
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I guess there's no point listing the HRR game anymore (was that with gold too??)... even on another page.
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| « Last Edit: Apr 12th, 2008, 7:06am by 99of9 » |
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Arimabuff
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #87 on: Apr 12th, 2008, 7:15am » |
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on Apr 12th, 2008, 7:05am, 99of9 wrote:| I guess there's no point listing the HRR game anymore (was that with gold too??)... even on another page. |
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My thoughts exactly! You buried it.
Btw, I've already put both our records on record.
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| « Last Edit: Apr 12th, 2008, 7:18am by Arimabuff » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #88 on: Apr 12th, 2008, 10:21am » |
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on Apr 12th, 2008, 6:48am, 99of9 wrote:| EMHHDDCRRRRRR (IOW with only CRR) against shallowblue with gold in game 74023. |
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Wow. I'm speechless.
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Arimabuff
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #89 on: Apr 12th, 2008, 11:37am » |
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EMHHDDCRRRRR (IOW with CRRR) against ArimaaScoreP1 with gold in game 74048.
(You were right 99of9, it was time to move on. )
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