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   Author  Topic: Move 2  (Read 6652 times)
Fritzlein
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Move 2
« on: Apr 18th, 2007, 9:06am »
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I'll bet a nickel chessandgo plays 2w Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Hg2n.  It isn't quite as flexible as 2w Ee2n Ee3n Hb2n Hg2n, but it is much more forcing, and gives us an immediate puzzle to solve.  He would be threatening an immediate EH attack on our f6 trap, but if we put our own horse on g6 to hinder the EH attack, he can use his elephant to attack our horse instead.
 
I haven't found any clear way to equalize as Silver.  It seems to me that no matter what we do, Gold can get some small initiative out of this opening.  (Which incidentally is why I believe that Gold must have an advantage from the first move) Therefore I see our move as a choice of which option is the least unsatisfactory.
 
Recently I have been leaning toward 2b ed7s ed6s ed5s hg7s as my favorite response.  Yes, he can harass our horse on g6 with his elephant, but our elephant is quite active and flexible as well, able to defend if necessary as well as able to counter-attack the center if he decentralizes his elephant.  However, because this move isn't completely satisfying, I'm also open to alternatives.
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seanick
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #1 on: Apr 18th, 2007, 11:32am »
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I guess in this position I tend to prefer 2b ed7s hg7s df7e me7e but then it usually doesn't involve a camel, and a large reason for me liking it is that it is not the usual response others use in that situation. maybe that alone is reason not to consider it.  
 
however, the reasoning for it is that it is difficult to catch the horse in any real danger, without directly chasing it up the h file with E. (which of course puts gold off center even moreso than if an attack is launched vs. 2b ed7s ed6s ed5s hg7s ). the primary drawback being that it is extremely passive as a response, and we really shouldn't go that easy on someone who really deserves more of a battle.
 
still, I thought I should at least chime in on one move of this game, and this is as good a move as any. (also this is the first I heard of the game actually being in progress.)  
 
-NICK
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #2 on: Apr 18th, 2007, 12:41pm »
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on Apr 18th, 2007, 11:32am, seanick wrote:
I guess in this position I tend to prefer 2b ed7s hg7s df7e me7e [...] the primary drawback being that it is extremely passive as a response

I generally don't mind defensive moves.  (Some would call that the understatement of the year Tongue)  However, there's a reason I don't want to be passive here.  After 2w Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Hg2n 2b ed7s hg7s df7e me7e, I don't see a good answer to 3w Ee5e Ef5e hg6w Eg5s.  He would be threatening to pull our h-rabbit, and we couldn't stop it.  Admittedly, he would have decentralized his elephant, but so what?  Is there a way for us to take advantage of it?  If we can refute that attempt to pull a rabbit for no compensating weakness, then I like your suggestion just fine.
 
In contrast, after 2w Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Hg2n 2b ed7s ed6s ed5s hg7s, he can still make a threat to pull a rabbit that we can't stop, but now our elephant is poised to do damage in the center.  We can at least complicate and threaten to get something back.  That should concern chessandgo even more in this game with his rabbit dangling on d1.
 
These are just general impressions based on experience, and we should look at specific variations before accepting any conclusions.  Chessandgo may get an advantage for no compensation no matter what we do.  I just want to be clear about my vague fear: namely that playing passively makes it too easy on him, because it is tantamount to saying, "Here, pull a rabbit before I really get started."
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #3 on: Apr 18th, 2007, 1:30pm »
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I generally don't mind defensive moves.  (Some would call that the understatement of the year )  However, there's a reason I don't want to be passive here.  After 2w Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Hg2n 2b ed7s hg7s df7e me7e, I don't see a good answer to 3w Ee5e Ef5e hg6w Eg5s.  He would be threatening to pull our h-rabbit, and we couldn't stop it.  Admittedly, he would have decentralized his elephant, but so what?  Is there a way for us to take advantage of it?  If we can refute that attempt to pull a rabbit for no compensating weakness, then I like your suggestion just fine.  

 
3b ed6s ed5s ed4s hf6w
 
I'm not sure what gold would do next, but if he drags the rabbit, silver has at worst a grip on gold's camel.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #4 on: Apr 19th, 2007, 10:20am »
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Hmm, that actually that seems to work, JDB.  If chessandgo didn't have that central rabbit, I'm not sure we could dig around in the center fast enough to get compensation, but as it stands, something like
2w Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Hg2n
2b ed7s hg7s df7e me7e
3w Ee5e Ef5e hg6w Eg5s
3b ed6s ed5s ed4s hf6w
4w Eg6e dg7s Cc2w Md2w
4b ed3s he6e dg6n hf6w
5w Eh6s rh7s Eh5s rh6s
5b ed2n Rd1n ed3n Rd2n
appears to leave us in fine shape.  Of course it is more complicated than this, but my cursory look suggests that you are right: chessandgo can't afford to decentralize his elephant.  He has to get his rabbit out of the center first.  I withdraw my objection to seanick's suggestion for 2w, pending further investigation.
« Last Edit: Apr 19th, 2007, 10:21am by Fritzlein » IP Logged

RonWeasley
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #5 on: Apr 19th, 2007, 12:18pm »
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I can't make your 4w happen because of the horse on b2.  If I'm right, C&G has the problem of how to safen his camel and the d1 rabbit.  However, 4w Hb2n Cc2w Md2w xxxx protects the camel and leaves his rabbit exposed while our h7 rabbit is exposed after we walk our dog (maybe mf7s dg7w df7w mf6n).  Our e is in the center but his E is going to pull rabbits that can't get much support.   So I don't favor this line if I'm seeing it right.
 
Overall, C&G likes to attack with EH with a backup M and often a H on the other side.  He tries to get Rs down the a and h files to the 7th rank  and likes smaller pieces and Rs to support the heavy pieces from the 3rd and 4th ranks.  A defensive player like me gets pinned in the back ranks.  If I attack his E (or as strong a piece as needed) has been ready to switch to defense.  He does this by committing my strongest pieces to duty against a lesser set of his pieces.  Actually, I think all the good players try to do this last strategy, and some of you are good at it.
 
I think the best games against C&G incorporate a similar strategy against him.  An attack by strong pieces, usually a supported EH, must be present.  This keeps some of his force on defense and softens his attack.
 
Considering this, I support a three elephant forward response and a horse on g7.  Whatever we do, we need the horse on g7.
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jdb
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #6 on: Apr 19th, 2007, 12:38pm »
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Considering this, I support a three elephant forward response and a horse on g7.  Whatever we do, we need the horse on g7.

 
I'll assume you mean a horse on g6.
This protects against gold getting a nasty E on e6 and H on g6, which is not good at all for silver.
 
What happens if gold then plays
4w H->h6
 
Silver cant stop the rabbit drag on the h file. Can silver get enough compensation somewhere else?
 
 
 
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #7 on: Apr 19th, 2007, 1:28pm »
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on Apr 19th, 2007, 12:38pm, jdb wrote:
What happens if gold then plays
4w H->h6
 
Silver cant stop the rabbit drag on the h file. Can silver get enough compensation somewhere else?

Do you mean 3w H->h6 ?
 
after
2w Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Hg2n
2b ed7s ed6s ed5s hg7s
3w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5e Hh5n
3b rh7w ed4s Md2e ed3s
 
it appears to me we would have plenty of play in the center.  I doubt chessandgo will advance that horse before consolidating at home, assuming we advance our own elephant three on 2b.
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jdb
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #8 on: Apr 19th, 2007, 3:45pm »
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Thanks for typing out the correct line.
 
What if gold plays
4w Me2n De1n Rd1e Hb2n ?
 
It threatens to bury, but not quite blockade the silver elephant.
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NIC1138
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #9 on: Apr 19th, 2007, 9:16pm »
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The style of this opening we played is neither defensive nor agressive. It's BDSM! You people must like to suffer!! Either that, or we are letting "some of the players" Roll Eyes here try to uncontinously play bad just to prove their (equivocate!) convictions on instrinsic advantage for gold in the opening. That's the same reason we musn't let a bot programmer represent us at the Arimaa challenge!...
 
We should be discussing this move already at the previous!!... Angry We all knew this is the opening chessandgo prefers!... At least I did. Tongue And we let him do it, playing in a comfortable position... I tought you guys wanted to give him a hard time! How close are we to acomplish this at this moment?...
 
I confess I did a lousy opposition too... I talked too much about alternatives instead of trying to point flaws on the leading candidates. Embarassed
 
OK, now here goes my proposal, a defensive one: ed7s me7s me6e mf6e. It takes advantage of the fact we don't have rabbits to protect at the center. There is plenty of time to save the camel too, whatever he tries to do to it.
 
Now, I would like to reiterate already: if we ever get to threaten his camel up there, I don't think he will be concerned about his rabbit at the center. I think if we pull it, he might even like it!... Even tough we believe it's a bad thing to do to him (again, the BDSM, you know... Cool )
« Last Edit: Apr 19th, 2007, 9:22pm by NIC1138 » IP Logged
The_Jeh
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #10 on: Apr 19th, 2007, 10:23pm »
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If you put the camel on g6, he's just going to pull it to g5.  It might not be so easy saving it as you might think.  He'll force us to bring our elephant to the rescue, pulling us into a boggy rescue operation. Additionally, having both our elephant and camel tied up on the east side leaves the c6 trap vulnerable to a potential MH attack.
 
And our flexible opening position is about as good as you can get.  If we'd built it specifically to combat his habitual opening, he could have just switched it on us, leaving us with our hands tied.
« Last Edit: Apr 19th, 2007, 10:25pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
NIC1138
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #11 on: Apr 20th, 2007, 1:48am »
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There is another move I was going to propose, but then I saw the imminent EH take-over, and changed my mind. But now I'm back thinking it's actually quite a good idea.
 
Just charge with the phant already:  2b ed7s ed6s ed5s ed4s. (and not later on) just like in one of the most traditional openings... It's asking for it!... Forget already that we are silver.
 
Jean can't make any damage right now. If he really decides for wasting the 4 moves in taking over the house, we can choose: push the camel and kill the western cat, or kill the eastern cat (not best). He might go for it, and trade it for our dog... (who voted for placing that dog there afteral!?? Cheesy  I did... Cry )
 
If we choose to kill the western cat, then after spending 3 (or 4) moves killing the dog, there is no way he can protect his western trap. This means we would waste his horse. I doubt very much Jean would accept all those bloody tradings... Even if he does, I didn't find and "chain of events" with massive slaughtering leading to an obvious advantage to him. If we go as far as killing the cat he would probably do something in his field instead of exploring out captured trap.
 
 
...And for the camel hijacking, I do see the MH attack threat, but how would he pull our camel it so inexorably?? And why would it be better to leave the horse there to be sacrificed?... Would our spared camel pose a new threat?
« Last Edit: Apr 20th, 2007, 1:55am by NIC1138 » IP Logged
99of9
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #12 on: Apr 20th, 2007, 2:06am »
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Anyone know how to set up some kind of Tree on a wiki so we can consider moves and responses to an indefinite depth without confusing ourselves?
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arimaa_master
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #13 on: Apr 20th, 2007, 3:09am »
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on Apr 19th, 2007, 3:45pm, jdb wrote:
Thanks for typing out the correct line.
 
What if gold plays
4w Me2n De1n Rd1e Hb2n ?
 
It threatens to bury, but not quite blockade the silver elephant.

 
I think your 4w is very solid.  
We can try to play: 4b ed2n Me3n ed3e hb7s
but I don´t see any initiative for us after: 5w Me4e Ee5s Cc2e Db1n
 
 
Or can we afford something crazy like: 4b Cc2n ed2w ec2w me7w ?
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JacquesB
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #14 on: Apr 20th, 2007, 5:34am »
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Here is a set of questions a 1500-1600 Elo reader might find interesting. Don't think I don't
follow this discussion just because I don't post. Its just that the opening requires
a lot of experience I don't have. I hope to be more useful later in  the game. Specially
if I find the time (I don't know when) to code something I am speculating with.
 
1." .. but if we put our own horse on g6 to hinder the EH attack, he can use his elephant
to attack our horse instead. "
 
Is this attack valid? A horse hostage on the opponent's side is a bad idea. And anyway,
is a horse hostage worth the reduction of elephant's mobility when the attacker does not
win the strongest free piece (as in a camel hostage)? If the attacker only wants to
pull it out, that's not a very serious attack since he would be wasting his initiative
doing slow moves that can be undone.
 
2. ".. if he decentralizes his elephant."
 
That can be found in many posts. Why is this important? When I am afraid of my opponent
(which by the way is not a good idea, you may suffer position "erosion") I always
count piece by piece if my pieces are more or less in the same columns as his. If he
decentralizes his elephant, so would I. But since "the mob" is maybe 2200 Elo
decentralizing the phant against us should expose some weakness we can exploit.
Is that what you mean?
 
3. ".. in this game with his rabbit dangling on d1."
 
What's the problem with this? I would understand the setup where that rabbit was in
b1 i.o. the dog more easily. I understand he did that to use the dog to control b3
when the horse in b2 has gone hunting. Is that correct? But returning to the rabbit,
it will only take part in the game much later. Since there are 8 rabbits, is it a good
idea if a lonely rabbit tries a central path i.o. the usual paths on the side? I can
imagine pros for this idea: A single advance threat does not work unless it is very
well backed up, but many simultaneous threats may work just because the defender
cannot defend them all. Also, this rabbit can free a frozen piece even at the price of
exposing itself too much. Even if its lost, I may have given enough worries to the
opponent to be worth the small sacrifice.
 
4. .. Predictions from 2w to 5b: I'm really impressed! I take notes and will check
if the game follows that Wink I never imagined you could anticipate so much. Now I
understand why some opponents (specially Olti and Camelback) are torturing my
poor innocent pieces so badly in the postal tournament. Wink
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