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   Author  Topic: Move 5  (Read 3166 times)
Fritzlein
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Move 5
« on: Jun 1st, 2007, 12:52pm »
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OK, so the Mob wanted to pull the camel instead of freezing the advanced horse.  This has more or less taken the game out of my main experience and out of my comfort zone.  Not that I think our position is objectively bad, mind you.  I'm just confused because it is not the way I am used to playing.  I'm less clear now what our goals are relative to chessandgo's goals.
 
Now that I have had another cursory look at the position, I will wager that chessandgo will not retreat his camel.  Does anyone want the other side of this bet?  (Specifically, 99of9, what caused you to promote the camel drag from eighth to first at the last minute?)
 
I don't think chessandgo is going to be scared about giving up a camel hostage with his elephant and his horse both out in front.  If we try to force his camel to our side, chessandgo can at least make sure it ends up around the c6 trap rather than around the f6 trap.  So I am expecting him simply use his (not frozen!) horse to threaten a rabbit pull.  Indeed, with our camel so far away, chessandgo might even be able to get away with immediately putting his horse on a6 or a7.
 
Is it too soon to start thinking about how we would answer 5w Hb5w Ha5n xxxx xxxx and 5w Hb5w Ha5n Ha6n xxxx?
« Last Edit: Jun 1st, 2007, 12:56pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

JacquesB
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Re: Move 5
« Reply #1 on: Jun 2nd, 2007, 5:17am »
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The camel pulls and camel flip were my three last choices. I can't avoid the impression of having played a "thank you move" http://senseis.xmp.net/?ThankYouMove
 
I don't foresee much, because I would make too many errors, but I try to understand what is weak and what is not. We have turned a timid attack into a solid attack. We are not really threatening the camel. In fact, we have strengthened it. The gold horse moving to c7 is no longer feasible because it would be frozen at c5, but it is still latent. It has bad-aji, so to say.
 
Of course, nothing is lost. The position is simply more complicated. We will find the line that makes all this an advantage for us. Don't doubt it.
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99of9
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Re: Move 5
« Reply #2 on: Jun 2nd, 2007, 6:28am »
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on Jun 1st, 2007, 12:52pm, Fritzlein wrote:
I will wager that chessandgo will not retreat his camel.  Does anyone want the other side of this bet?  (Specifically, 99of9, what caused you to promote the camel drag from eighth to first at the last minute?)

 
I think the best move for chessandgo includes caring for his camel in some way.  He may not do it, because he does have aggressive tendencies.  When I voted for this move I was playing the position rather than playing the opponent.  
 
If he does opt for camel safety it will take him more steps than the 2 it cost us to drag it.  Then we will have extra steps to do whatever else we wanted to do last turn (e.g. freeze horse and/or threaten rabbit pulling of our own).
 
If he doesn't do anything about his camel, I am very happy to give up a rabbit pull for a good shot at a camel hostage (on his wing of choice).  In response to the rabbit threats, I will argue for m->e5 E->e4.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 5
« Reply #3 on: Jun 2nd, 2007, 9:20am »
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on Jun 2nd, 2007, 6:28am, 99of9 wrote:
If he does opt for camel safety it will take him more steps than the 2 it cost us to drag it.  Then we will have extra steps to do whatever else we wanted to do last turn (e.g. freeze horse and/or threaten rabbit pulling of our own).

Yes, this was why I initially liked the camel drag, until it belatedly occurred to me that he probably won't take the time to retreat.
 
on Jun 2nd, 2007, 6:28am, 99of9 wrote:
If he doesn't do anything about his camel, I am very happy to give up a rabbit pull for a good shot at a camel hostage (on his wing of choice).  In response to the rabbit threats, I will argue for m->e5 E->e4.

OK, so just hypothetically, let's take a peek at
5w Hb5w Ha5n Ha6n De2w
5b Md4e ec4e Me4n ed4e
6w Ed6e Me5w Md5w Ee6w
If his wing of choice is the west, how do we try for advantage there, or even equality?  It seems that the advanced horse makes the camel fearless.  For example
6b ee4w ed4w Mc5n ec4n
7w hb6s Mc6w Ha7s ra8s
 
Maybe there are better tactics for us, but I've been burned before by chessandgo's EHM attack.
« Last Edit: Jun 2nd, 2007, 9:22am by Fritzlein » IP Logged

Fritzlein
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Re: Move 5
« Reply #4 on: Jun 2nd, 2007, 9:30am »
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on Jun 2nd, 2007, 5:17am, JacquesB wrote:
The camel pulls and camel flip were my three last choices. I can't avoid the impression of having played a "thank you move" http://senseis.xmp.net/?ThankYouMove

Hehe, thanks for the vocabulary expander.  Those wily Japanese!  I think that there is definitely some crossover from Go strategy to Arimaa.  Specifically, the there are times when you must let one area remain unclear, with your pieces there "somewhat dead", rather than struggle until they are "totally dead".  Giving up the struggle earlier allows you to complicate and perhaps gain tempo elsewhere, either because the other player needs time to kill you off, or because the other player doesn't kill you off, allowing you to threaten to revive your situation at a later date.
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The_Jeh
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Re: Move 5
« Reply #5 on: Jun 15th, 2007, 12:02am »
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Although it is easy to rebuild one's reserve with this time control, I'd say Chessandgo is cutting it a bit close with only 3 days left in reserve. Well, it seems that way because the reserve started out as 21 days. I'm sure he'll move at the last second.
 
I don't really have anything intellectual to add. Just trying to resuscitate this forum...
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99of9
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Re: Move 5
« Reply #6 on: Jun 15th, 2007, 12:51am »
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I'm glad you're keeping an eye on the clocks.  A time out would be the worst possible outcome for this game, so I think we should try to remind Jean if he goes under 24 hours.
 
By the way, I really like requesting Notification on these Mob forum threads, because I get an email every time people post, which is good if Jean plays in a week I haven't visited the forum much.
« Last Edit: Jun 15th, 2007, 12:53am by 99of9 » IP Logged
RonWeasley
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Re: Move 5
« Reply #7 on: Jun 15th, 2007, 7:20am »
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Gold chooses 5w Hb5w De2w Rc1w Rd1w.
 
I'm going away part of next week.  I'll be back Thursday morning (EDT) and would like to start the voting then.  I would end the voting Friday morning (EDT).  This is only a 24 hour voting window.  Please speak up if you can't vote during this time and I can get a volunteer to run the election, maybe Wednesday through the end of Thursday.  
 
My first reflex is 5b Md4e ec4e Me4n ed4e.  This is likely to produce a camel hostage for us.  Keep in mind that C&G knows how to play against a camel hostage.  He has to move his E to move his M.  If his M goes east, we should be able to keep it and gold will try a flood of the f6 trap to free his E.  I think he will move his M west and try to get EMH on the c6 trap.  I haven't analyzed this to see any forced advantage.  We would try to freeze M and H with our e before he gets extra pieces in there to maintain mobility.  C&G is good at this, but I think our chances are better.
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arimaa_master
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Re: Move 5
« Reply #8 on: Jun 15th, 2007, 8:23am »
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on Jun 15th, 2007, 7:20am, RonWeasley wrote:
Gold chooses 5w Hb5w De2w Rc1w Rd1w.
 
I'm going away part of next week.  I'll be back Thursday morning (EDT) and would like to start the voting then.  I would end the voting Friday morning (EDT).  This is only a 24 hour voting window.  Please speak up if you can't vote during this time and I can get a volunteer to run the election, maybe Wednesday through the end of Thursday.  
 
My first reflex is 5b Md4e ec4e Me4n ed4e.  This is likely to produce a camel hostage for us.  Keep in mind that C&G knows how to play against a camel hostage.  He has to move his E to move his M.  If his M goes east, we should be able to keep it and gold will try a flood of the f6 trap to free his E.  I think he will move his M west and try to get EMH on the c6 trap.  I haven't analyzed this to see any forced advantage.  We would try to freeze M and H with our e before he gets extra pieces in there to maintain mobility.  C&G is good at this, but I think our chances are better.

 
 
Ok, I looked at position from fresh - not reading your first reflex - I thought about your suggested move too, but then I think that Gold can avoid camel hostage with ease like:  
 
5b Md4e ec4e Me4n ed4e
6w Ed6e Me5w Md5w Mc5w
6b ee4w ed4w ec4w me7w
7w Ee6w Mb5e hb6s Ha5n
 
And I guess that this is C&A type of position (and we definitely should avoid these types of positions).
 
My first sugestion is therefore another:
 
5b ec4w Db3e eb4s eb3w  - threaten rabbit pull and dog capture at the same time thus C&A will have less time to do his plans although I don´t see any direct continuation to Gold I think that with this move we are on right way Smiley
 
(I know I know - my proposal will be very soon smashed by Fritzlein or someone - but at least I am trying Smiley)
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jdb
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Re: Move 5
« Reply #9 on: Jun 15th, 2007, 8:54am »
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on Jun 15th, 2007, 8:23am, arimaa_master wrote:

(I know I know - my proposal will be very soon smashed by Fritzlein or someone - but at least I am trying Smiley)

 Grin Grin Grin Grin
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jdb
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Re: Move 5
« Reply #10 on: Jun 15th, 2007, 9:20am »
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5b ec4w Md4w Mc4n eb4e
 
I think this makes it harder for the camel to get away cleanly. Gold cant undo the move, because of repetition. If he uses the E to free the M, I think we can force his dog up the board. If he uses the H to free the M, the H would be in a poorer position to help the M get away. The M could go to c7, but that looks unusual (to me anyway) and there should exist some punishment for that.  Wink
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 5
« Reply #11 on: Jun 16th, 2007, 12:06am »
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Before analyzing our options, I can't resist recalling my prediction from way back on move 1:
 
on Apr 12th, 2007, 5:09pm, Fritzlein wrote:
Based on past games, I suspect chessandgo will not leave his d1 rabbit in the middle for long.  He intends to play (as part of his moves at some point in the opening) Hb2n Db1n Rc1w Rd1w.  He will eventually use four steps to end up at the same place as he would end up if he started with the 99of9 setup with dogs behind the traps, and then played the four steps Hb2n Dc2w Cd1n Cd2w.  Either way he gets his west wing into the same configuration.

I believe now as I believed then that chessandgo has no interest in advancing rabbits, and on the contrary his objective in the opening is primarily to pull a rabbit, unless we give him a better target.
 
On the other hand I predicted wrong about chessandgo putting his horse on a6 or a7, as he has left it on a5 instead.  At first glance it looks to me like that gives us more tactical opportunities than the horse on a6 or a7 would yield.
 
For example, Ron has already pointed out the possibility of
 
5b Md4e ec4e Me4n ed4e
6w Ed6e Me5w Md5w Ee6w
6b ee4w ed4w ec4w eb4n
 
which leaves us threatening to twist the c6 situation to our advantage.  For example, we would be threatening to play 7b cc7s me7w md7w ce8s, with the eventual goal of getting our camel to a6, so chessandgo would have to step lively on 7w already to counter our possible camel crossing.
 
What's more, chessandgo's other options for 6w don't look very threatening.  In arimaa_master's line
on Jun 15th, 2007, 8:23am, arimaa_master wrote:
Ok, I looked at position from fresh - not reading your first reflex - I thought about your suggested move too, but then I think that Gold can avoid camel hostage with ease like:  
 
5b Md4e ec4e Me4n ed4e
6w Ed6e Me5w Md5w Mc5w
6b ee4w ed4w ec4w me7w
7w Ee6w Mb5e hb6s Ha5n

he suggests we want to avoid the position, but I would love to have it!  For example we could continue 7b rb7s cc7w md7w eb4e, and now our camel is close enough to chessandgo's horse that the horse needs to run away, but it can't run away without giving us a camel hostage.  The EMH attack can be busted by a well-placed defensive camel.
 
I'll look at the other move suggestions tomorrow (It's bedtime now), but in my mind Ron's move (and 99of9's) is the one to beat, and chessandgo's move 5w is questionable precisely because it allows us to play this line.
« Last Edit: Jun 18th, 2007, 7:49am by Fritzlein » IP Logged

Fritzlein
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Re: Move 5
« Reply #12 on: Jun 16th, 2007, 11:27am »
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What am I thinking?  If I like the position after
 
5b Md4e ec4e Me4n ed4e
6w Ed6e Me5w Md5w Ee6w
6b ee4w ed4w ec4w eb4n
 
then I should like
 
5b ec4n Md4w ec5w Mc4n
 
Duh.  This latter move is my new first choice, not because it is far and away better than the alternatives, but because it  gets the game back to the type of position I am comfortable playing.  Chessandgo can't escape with a rabbit pull.  We can maneuver for for position, specifically getting our camel over to the west to threaten taking chessandgo's exposed horse hostage.  I think chessandgo would be forced to retreat his camel and put his elephant on c5, which makes our camel crossing simpler.
 
This would get it back to the main question of Arimaa openings in our time.  Is it good or bad to take an opposing horse hostage with one's elephant?  You know my opinion on that. Wink
« Last Edit: Jun 18th, 2007, 12:02am by Fritzlein » IP Logged

Fritzlein
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Re: Move 5
« Reply #13 on: Jun 16th, 2007, 1:23pm »
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on Jun 15th, 2007, 9:20am, jdb wrote:
5b ec4w Md4w Mc4n eb4e
 
I think this makes it harder for the camel to get away cleanly.

I don't think the camel needs to get away any time soon.  I believe chessandgo has time to first pull a rabbit with his horse.  Where are we going to park his camel so that he can't free it later?  His horse will be sitting in the prime spot where we would wish to put his camel.  Furthermore, once we let him pull a rabbit, it gets harder to get our camel in any sort of position to do damage to his horse, because there is an extra rabbit in the way.
 
How would you prevent his camel from making a delayed escape after
 
5b ec4w Md4w Mc4n eb4e
6w Ha5n Ha6n Ha7s ra8s
 
?
 
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 5
« Reply #14 on: Jun 16th, 2007, 4:03pm »
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on Jun 15th, 2007, 8:23am, arimaa_master wrote:
My first sugestion is therefore another:
 
5b ec4w Db3e eb4s eb3w  - threaten rabbit pull and dog capture at the same time
[...]
(I know I know - my proposal will be very soon smashed by Fritzlein or someone - but at least I am trying Smiley)

Actually, that proposal is not easy to refute.  Chessandgo doesn't have a big threat at the moment, since it would take his horse five steps to push through to c7.  If he has to use a step to protect his dog, he can't pull our rabbit with his horse, and can't stop us from pulling his rabbit.
 
I think the effectiveness of your suggestion traces back to the way our tucked rabbits slow down chessandgo in attacking our home.  I have been ambivalent about tucked rabbits in the past, but I think I may have been selling them short.
 
The only drawback I can see is somewhat remote.  Whenever my opponent decentralizes his elephant to one wing, I immediately consider whether my camel can advance on the other wing.  After
 
5b ec4w Db3e eb4s eb3w
6w Dd2n Md4w Me4w Mf4w
 
we certainly can't pull the rabbit twice and allow chessandgo an EM attack against f6.  Even pulling the rabbit once and running two steps back with our elephant allows
 
6b ea3n Ra2n ea4e eb4e
7w Ed6w Mg4n Mg5s Hg6s
 
which looks at least even for chessandgo.  Still, your suggestion for 5b is definitely in the running in my book.  Thanks for suggesting a line and risking that I would disagree with you.  (Of course, you can be dead right even if I don't realize it.)
« Last Edit: Jun 18th, 2007, 7:47am by Fritzlein » IP Logged

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