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Topic: Move 20 (Read 6379 times) |
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Simon
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Fritzlein has moved:
19s rc6w ed4n ed5n ed6w
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #1 on: Sep 18th, 2009, 3:50am » |
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The only move I can find that doesn't lose material is
20g Mc3e Md3e Dh4s cg4e
Other moves either let silver defend the f3 horse with 20s ec6e Hc7nx ed6s ed5s, block e4 so the M can't move the f4 horse, or trade H for d after 20g Mc3e Md3e Me3w hf3w.
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Adanac
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #2 on: Sep 18th, 2009, 3:55am » |
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on Sep 17th, 2009, 11:57pm, Simon wrote:Fritzlein has moved:
19s rc6w ed4n ed5n ed6w |
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The game will probably be decided in the next few moves, so we should put some heavy analysis into this decision.
I think it's suicide to put our camel on e4, because Fritz could then retreat the elephant to d4. We also need an "obstacle" piece to prevent the elephant from capturing our horse AND returning to d4 or e4 next move. I don't have time for a full analysis right now, but I nominate this move:
20g Mc3e Md3e Cd2n Cd3n
If Fritzlein responds with
20s de5s re7s re6s dc5e
then we can save our horse but the board will get crazy-messy and we may not get an opportunity to take down the silver horse.
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #3 on: Sep 18th, 2009, 4:24am » |
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on Sep 18th, 2009, 3:55am, Adanac wrote:
20g Mc3e Md3e Cd2n Cd3n
If Fritzlein responds with
20s de5s re7s re6s dc5e
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The response instead could be
20s de5s re6s re6s ra5s, leaving the silver dog on c5. Gold's effort to save the horse by moving C->d6 loses the cat quickly.
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arimaa_master
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #4 on: Sep 18th, 2009, 5:10am » |
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My suggestion is:
20g Mc3e Md3e Dh4s Cc4s
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #5 on: Sep 18th, 2009, 7:38am » |
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ahhh, nice Dh4s step, I had not found it. Now I can breethe better 
I like Ron's move, I think arimaa_master's move does not work, and feel as Ron does about Greg's move.
After 20g Mc3e Md3e Dh4s X, seems like we trade horses, and I'm not sure for who it's good. Silver will have a harder time controlling f3 as our Hf2 comes into play, but we no longer have an attacking Horse on the west. We have to be extremely careful though that our caMel does not get cut away from the west, otherwise silver will destroy our western wing quickly with h+d.
I think that after arimaa_master's move what happens is even worse:
20g Mc3e Md3e Dh4s Cc4s
20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x ed6s ed5s
21g cg4e Eg3n Eg4s hf4e hf3x
21s ed4s Me3n ed3e X
and our caMel floats on e4.
After Ron's move:
20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e
20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x rg5s rh5w
21g Me3n Me4s hf4w hf3x Cc4s
does not seem possible because:
21s ed6s ed5s ed4s rg4w
22g Me3e Mf3w rf4s rf3x Me3e
22s ed3e he4w dc5s hd4s
looks bad for us.
So:
20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e
20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x rg5s rh5w
21g Me3n Me4s hf4w hf3x Cc4e
might be possible since:
21s rg4w ed6s Cd4w ed5s
might not work due to:
22g Cd2n Cc4s Rc2e Dc1n
Another line might be:
20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e
20s rg5s rh5w ec6e Hc7s Hc6x
21g Me3n Me4s hf4w hf3x Me3w
21s rg4w ed6s ed5s de5e
22g Hf2n Hf3w rf4s rf3x Cc4s
22s he4e ed4e He3e ee4s
Overall seems complicated, but unless I'm missing something we should find (I hope) a way to get back to the previous state with just a horse trade.
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #6 on: Sep 18th, 2009, 8:54am » |
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I'm liking Adanac's suggestion for deep analysis. I'm not good at making move trees, but I think maintaining a tree with brief annotation will help us organize this tactical minefield. Please volunteer, anybody! Then I encourage all to check each others' work because there are lots of exchange and positional possibilities that are easy to get wrong a few moves down the line.
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jdb
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #7 on: Sep 18th, 2009, 10:43am » |
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I will make up a tree after work tonight.
The number in the square brackets after the move is the first post where the move is mentioned.
The analysis tree:
20g Mc3e Md3e Cd2n Cd3n [2]
. 20s de5s re7s re6s ra5s [3]
20g Mc3e Md3e Dh4s cg4e [1]
. 20s rg5s de5s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x [12]
. . 21g de4w Me3n Me4s hf4w hf3x
. . . 21s ed6s ed5e ee5e ef5s
. 20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x ed6s ed5s [10,11,13]
. . 21g Eg3n Eg4s hf4e hf3x Me3w
. . . 21s Md3e ed4s Me3e ed3e [Not good for gold]
. . . 21s ed4e Md3n ee4s Md4e
. . . . 22g Cc4e de5n Me4n Me5w
20g Mc3e Md3e Dh4s Cc4s [4]
. 20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x ed6s ed5s [5]
. . 21g cg4e Eg3n Eg4s hf4e hf3x
. . . 21s ed4s Me3n ed3e X
20g Dh4s Mc3e Md3e Cc4e [14]
. 20s de5s re7s re6s rh5s
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| « Last Edit: Sep 20th, 2009, 5:31pm by jdb » |
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mdk
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #8 on: Sep 18th, 2009, 10:56am » |
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One other possibility perhaps:
20g Mc3e Md3e Cd2n Cd3n
oh now i see this was already posted
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| « Last Edit: Sep 18th, 2009, 4:19pm by mdk » |
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jdb
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #9 on: Sep 18th, 2009, 3:27pm » |
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Quote:After Ron's move:
20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e
20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x rg5s rh5w
21g Me3n Me4s hf4w hf3x Cc4s
does not seem possible because:
21s ed6s ed5s ed4s rg4w
22g Me3e Mf3w rf4s rf3x Me3e
22s ed3e he4w dc5s hd4s
looks bad for us.
So:
20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e
20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x rg5s rh5w
21g Me3n Me4s hf4w hf3x Cc4e
might be possible since:
21s rg4w ed6s Cd4w ed5s
might not work due to:
22g Cd2n Cc4s Rc2e Dc1n
Another line might be:
20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e
20s rg5s rh5w ec6e Hc7s Hc6x
21g Me3n Me4s hf4w hf3x Me3w
21s rg4w ed6s ed5s de5e
22g Hf2n Hf3w rf4s rf3x Cc4s
22s he4e ed4e He3e ee4s |
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20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e
20s rg5s de5s ec6e Hf7s Hc6x
21g rg4n Eg3n Eg4s hf4e hf3x
21s ra6s ra5s ed6s ed5s
Silver now has a goal threat, so gold can't capture. I think its still OK for gold, its just another tactical resource silver has available.
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Hannoskaj
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #10 on: Sep 19th, 2009, 12:21am » |
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I think that on all moves with camel e3, Silver's reply is
20s Ec6e Hc7sX Ed6ss
In any case its elephant is most useful back, so let's go as soon as possible, all the more since I can't see any trick to gain time otherwise, and it does keep the camel from taking horse.
On this basis,
20g Mc3ee Dh4s Cg4e
is most natural since it gives us a free step to choose on 21g, and not immediately on 20g.
But in any case, I don't like that much since I don't see any way to keep Silver to hem our camel in the east, be it after
21g Eg3ns Hf4e Hf3X x
or
21g Eg3n Hf4w(or n) Eg4w Hf3X x (Me3w with the hope S cannot immediately drag camel ?)
Among the crazy ideas, though probably only crazy and not good, there is
20g Cd2nn Dh4s Mc3e
For example
20s E takes h De5ss
21g M flips d to c3
21s E->e3
and try to make something in the east with camel.
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Hannoskaj
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #11 on: Sep 19th, 2009, 12:45am » |
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On further analysis, I think that
20g Mc3ee Dh4s cg4e
20s Ec6e hc7nX Ed6ss
21g Eg3ns hf4e hf3X Me3w
should be OK.
After
21s Ed4e md3n Ee4s md4e
I think we have the upper hand after the complicated
22g Cc4e de5e(or n) Me4nw
Anyhow, I agree this looks like a critical moment, but if nobody can come up with a credible alternative to Ron's
20g Mc3ee Dh4s cg4e
we should not lose time on it. If the choice is Fritzlein's or to be really made on 21g, better let him think on his time or think on next move...
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #12 on: Sep 19th, 2009, 3:14am » |
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on Sep 18th, 2009, 3:27pm, jdb wrote:
20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e
20s rg5s de5s ec6e Hf7s Hc6x
21g rg4n Eg3n Eg4s hf4e hf3x
21s ra6s ra5s ed6s ed5s
Silver now has a goal threat, so gold can't capture. I think its still OK for gold, its just another tactical resource silver has available.
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Perhaps
20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e
20s rg5s de5s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x
21g de4w Me3n Me4s hf4w hf3x
is better, for
21s x x ra6s ra5s might be met with
22g Me3w Md3e dd4s Dc1w
So the game might go:
20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e
20s rg5s de5s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x
21g de4w Me3n Me4s hf4w hf3x
21s ed6s ed5e ee5e ef5s
Looks tense, but I can't see a clear plan for silver here, since it will be hard for him to hold to f3 without the elephant. We might have time to activate M+D on the west and go for a c3 capture or a c6 attack with D+R (+M?) + ...
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #13 on: Sep 19th, 2009, 3:26am » |
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Hannoskaj:
20g Cd2n Cd3n Dh4s Mc3e
20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x rh5s de5s saves the hf3
Now
20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e
20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x ed6s ed5s
Oops, looks like this answer had not been considered even though it's the most logical move It also seems to be the most painful for us.
Your line
20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e
20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x ed6s ed5s
21g Eg3n Eg4s hf4e hf3x Me3w
21s ed4e Md3n ee4s Md4e
22g Cc4e de5n Me4n Me5w
does look ok for gold to me, but there's also
20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e
20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x ed6s ed5s
21g Eg3n Eg4s hf4e hf3x Me3w
21s Md3e ed4s Me3e ed3e
where I can't find a move. Oops.
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #14 on: Sep 19th, 2009, 3:30am » |
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20g Dh4s Mc3e Md3e Cc4e
20s de5s re7s re6s rh5s
looks bad as well. Hmmm.
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