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Topic: Round 5 Nombril v. 722caasi: 722caasi disqualified (Read 13516 times) |
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janineb
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Re: Round 5 Nombril v. 722caasi: 722caasi disquali
« Reply #15 on: Jun 21st, 2010, 8:49am » |
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I an 722caasi's mother and I would also like to give my sincere apology for my son's behavior. He truly loves playing Arimaa and wanted so much to win for himself and his team that he made a very poor decision. You can be assured that I am working with him to help him understand the true impact of what he did and how important it is for him to never do anything like this in the future. He is a very smart kid and this is the first time he's done anything like this to my knowledge. Part of growing up is making mistakes and learning from them and this is a very important learning experience for him. I'm sorry for the impact what he has done has had on the community and I hope that everyone will find a way to maintain this site's warm and collegial environment while building in greater security against cheating.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Round 5 Nombril v. 722caasi: 722caasi disquali
« Reply #16 on: Jun 21st, 2010, 11:15am » |
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on Jun 21st, 2010, 4:45am, RonWeasley wrote:| Additionally, this community is very perceptive, and I expect any consistent cheating behavior would get noticed and exposed, like this was. |
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There's a big difference between cheating that is noticed and cheating that is proved. It was just a fluke that Omar could produce hard evidence in this case to go along with a suspicious correlation between good moves on the board and suggestions that had been made in chat.
Imagine that we continue as we have with commentary, and a few good moves from chat appear on the board. The loser of the game reads the chat archive and cries foul. Maybe we have our suspicions, but what can we do about it? Tell the winner that he isn't good enough to have thought of those moves on his own? How would you handle that situation if you thought probably the winner had cheated, but he hotly denied it?
Or contrariwise, suppose that one day chessandgo is commentating on my game and we happen to be on the same wavelength. It wouldn't be unrealistic for him to suggest ten of my moves before I played them, merely due to thinking alike. How could the community say, "but of course we trust that Fritz wasn't listening" without angering anyone else who we decided wasn't beyond suspicion?
The Arimaa community is indeed perceptive, but counting on them to play a guessing game is a recipe for suspicion, hard feelings, unproven accusations, bitter denials, and having discussion about cheating steal all the attention from discussion about the game per se.
on Jun 21st, 2010, 2:26am, chessandgo wrote:| My take on this is that live commentary via both the chatroom and teamspeak should continue. Possible cheating should not deter anyone from contributing to the overall spreading of arimaa knowledge. I wouldn't mind losing to a player who would have cheated this way, or at least much less than I would mind Fritzl (and others) having to keep his opinions to himself. Strategic and tactical live chat is a great way for everyone to improve their game in my opinion, and that's what really matters. |
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Jean, I applaud you for genuinely not caring if your opponents are cheating. It's great to play a game only for the challenge and for the learning, like you do. But it is different for you being at the top of the ladder, where wins are easy to come by and challenge is a rare commodity. For mere mortals challenge is easy to come by, whereas wins are more precious.
Imagine if there was commentary by me or you on every game, and imagine if cheating was widespread. For the honest players, every tournament game would be like playing against the World Champion. Say what you like about learning and spreading knowledge, beating your head against the wall like that would not be fun.
Of course we can't make cheating impossible, but we need to improve our safeguards to the point that cheating is not a wide-open temptation. Then we will be able to compete and commentate without having half our attention mulling over the possibility that cheating is going on. I know that's where my thoughts would be distracted if I continued to give commentary in the current environment, and I doubt I would be the only one with his mind in the gutter.
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omar
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Re: Round 5 Nombril v. 722caasi: 722caasi disquali
« Reply #17 on: Jun 21st, 2010, 11:23am » |
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722caasi, thank you for apologizing and promising never to do this again. I appreciate and admire your courage to choose this harder option over other easier options. It's a great sign. You've been an active member of the community and we really welcome having you here.
I don't think the possibility of cheating should hamper the spectators or commentators from discussing the game. The benefits outweigh the risks and drawbacks. However, additional safety measures need to be put in place.
As far as solutions go, it would be nearly impossible to prevent all forms of cheating as long as the games are online. However, this particular form of cheating can best be stopped by delaying the spectator view of the game by 5 minutes as suggested by ocmiente. I'll look into adding this for event games.
Also I guess it might help to place more stern warnings in the event rules in the future and mention that cheating can be detected by reviewing the server logs and will not be tolerated.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Round 5 Nombril v. 722caasi: 722caasi disquali
« Reply #18 on: Jun 21st, 2010, 11:28am » |
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on Jun 21st, 2010, 8:49am, janineb wrote:| I an 722caasi's mother and I would also like to give my sincere apology for my son's behavior. He truly loves playing Arimaa and wanted so much to win for himself and his team that he made a very poor decision. You can be assured that I am working with him to help him understand the true impact of what he did and how important it is for him to never do anything like this in the future. He is a very smart kid and this is the first time he's done anything like this to my knowledge. Part of growing up is making mistakes and learning from them and this is a very important learning experience for him. I'm sorry for the impact what he has done has had on the community and I hope that everyone will find a way to maintain this site's warm and collegial environment while building in greater security against cheating. |
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Thanks for chiming in, janineb. 722caasi has played anonymously and not shared anything about himself, which makes it harder for us to know what to think. It definitely changes my perception to know that he is young. When I was growing up, I did worse things than cheat on a board game, and I came out (I hope) all right in the end.
I truly hope this can be a learning experience. It's so easy to either veer to one side or the other: (A) being angry at being caught, resentful of authority, and deciding to self-justify bad behavior to try to make the guilt go away or (B) being consumed with guilt and shame to the point that, say, it is impossible to ever enjoy a game of Arimaa again. The middle ground of being sorry and behaving better while also being able to go forward positively and enjoy doing the right thing in the future is a hard path to find.
My thoughts and good wishes are with you and 722caasi as you try to find the best but hardest way forward.
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omar
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Re: Round 5 Nombril v. 722caasi: 722caasi disquali
« Reply #19 on: Jun 21st, 2010, 11:31am » |
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on Jun 21st, 2010, 11:23am, omar wrote:
As far as solutions go, it would be nearly impossible to prevent all forms of cheating as long as the games are online. However, this particular form of cheating can best be stopped by delaying the spectator view of the game by 5 minutes as suggested by ocmiente. I'll look into adding this for event games.
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Thinking about this a bit more I guess if I just throw out the most recent two move in the move list for spectators, that would be easiest way to implement it and work regardless of the time controls for the game.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Round 5 Nombril v. 722caasi: 722caasi disquali
« Reply #20 on: Jun 21st, 2010, 11:39am » |
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on Jun 21st, 2010, 11:23am, omar wrote:| However, this particular form of cheating can best be stopped by delaying the spectator view of the game by 5 minutes as suggested by ocmiente. I'll look into adding this for event games. |
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A time-delay in broadcasting games would be a neat deterrent to several types of cheating. Good idea, ocmiente. Thanks for addressing this, Omar.
Quote:| Also I guess it might help to place more stern warnings in the event rules in the future and mention that cheating can be detected by reviewing the server logs and will not be tolerated. |
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I am no fan of talking tough when the tough talk can't be backed up. The rules to the World Championship already have harsh penalties for cheating, but have you ever caught anyone cheating in the World Championship? This shouldn't be about how angry we will be if cheating happens. Instead let's focus on actually doing something that would make cheating harder. It's ridiculous to have a big bark and be toothless in practice. Much better is to walk softly and carry a big stick.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 21st, 2010, 11:40am by Fritzlein » |
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chessandgo
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Re: Round 5 Nombril v. 722caasi: 722caasi disquali
« Reply #21 on: Jun 21st, 2010, 11:44am » |
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on Jun 21st, 2010, 11:15am, Fritzlein wrote:
Jean, I applaud you for genuinely not caring if your opponents are cheating. It's great to play a game only for the challenge and for the learning, like you do. But it is different for you being at the top of the ladder, where wins are easy to come by and challenge is a rare commodity. For mere mortals challenge is easy to come by, whereas wins are more precious.
Imagine if there was commentary by me or you on every game, and imagine if cheating was widespread. |
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Well, cheating is currently *not* widespread as far as I can tell. And no, my opinion has nothing to do with my current ranking. I've been a beginner, I've lost many games (228 in 724, as much as you who have played more than twice as many games), and I know I'd have felt the same way back then.
I learnt a huge amount of things by being able to discuss with you back then, more than anyone did ever learn from anyone in arimaa I believe, and I would not be half the player I am without it, so I do mean what I wrote about the value of having strategic discussion available to all.
As far as I can remember, the only abuses that the community has suffered have been maybe one mutliple accounts thing, one rating abuse, and this game's abuse. That's only 3, we can live with that. If cheating becomes anywhere near widespread then I'll change my mind and agree with you, but for the moment increasing the overall arimaa knowledge is a much more important issue than preventing cheating, to me.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 21st, 2010, 11:46am by chessandgo » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Round 5 Nombril v. 722caasi: 722caasi disquali
« Reply #22 on: Jun 21st, 2010, 11:45am » |
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on Jun 21st, 2010, 11:31am, omar wrote:| Thinking about this a bit more I guess if I just throw out the most recent two move in the move list for spectators, that would be easiest way to implement it and work regardless of the time controls for the game. |
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I assume you mean not sending them from the server side, as opposed to not displaying them client-side? Not only is the server completely under your control, but also you wouldn't have to fix every client.
Also, do you mean omitting the last four ply? Throwing out just one move from each side is probably too small a buffer, because sometimes a good move from two ply previous is still good.
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chessandgo
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Re: Round 5 Nombril v. 722caasi: 722caasi disquali
« Reply #23 on: Jun 21st, 2010, 11:53am » |
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on Jun 21st, 2010, 6:56am, megajester wrote:
I know where you're coming from
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What is this supposed to mean exactly?
(not being a native speaker, I'm probably sometimes saying things I did not exactly mean, and sometimes misunderstand things being written, so I apologize if the meaning should be clear to me)
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ChrisB
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Re: Round 5 Nombril v. 722caasi: 722caasi disquali
« Reply #24 on: Jun 21st, 2010, 12:06pm » |
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I just heard about this incident this afternoon after being away all weekend. As captain of the Rockies, I support the LD's and LC's decision to declare the game a forfeit. I also concur with a ban for this year, but I hope 722caasi will be given the opportunity to return to league play during 2011.
Thanks 722caasi for apologizing and voluntarily stepping down. I appreciated you being one of our top volunteers for playing in League games and hope you'll continue to participate in arimaa events. I'll be happy to welcome you back as a teammate next year.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Round 5 Nombril v. 722caasi: 722caasi disquali
« Reply #25 on: Jun 21st, 2010, 12:06pm » |
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You are right, Jean. You have always cared more about learning than about winning. I am sorry that I implied your attitude came only from your rating when in fact you have always displayed the brilliant growth-oriented mindset you do now. I wish I were more like you in this way.
Still, it is not the same for you to have this great attitude yourself as to say that everyone else must have that attitude too. If we don't try to fix the problem, we are requiring everyone to take it in good humor if they lose due to cheating. That's an unreasonable and unrealistic requirement, especially given that at least one of our tournaments has cash prizes.
I agree with you that cheating does not appear to be widespread at the moment. However, if you think that the only instances of cheating that have occurred are the ones you mentioned, I have bridge I'd like to sell you.
I happen to know of two other cases of dishonesty (one ratings abuse and one malicious use of a duplicate account) that haven't seen the light of day because I have no proof. What good would it do for me to make my suspicions public? Since I couldn't prove anything, it would only promote a negative atmosphere to say what I believe is true. But these cases of dishonesty that not everyone knows about makes it seem very implausible that the single case of in-game cheating we have proof of (722caasi) is the only one that has happened.
I'm sorry, but my feeling about the matter has reached a tipping point where the status quo is no longer acceptable to me. Fortunately Omar is on the job. 
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| « Last Edit: Jun 21st, 2010, 12:35pm by Fritzlein » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Round 5 Nombril v. 722caasi: 722caasi disquali
« Reply #26 on: Jun 21st, 2010, 12:19pm » |
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on Jun 21st, 2010, 11:53am, chessandgo wrote:What is this supposed to mean exactly?
(not being a native speaker, I'm probably sometimes saying things I did not exactly mean, and sometimes misunderstand things being written, so I apologize if the meaning should be clear to me) |
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For megajester to say that he knows where you are coming from suggests that you have a reason for believing what you believe and he knows that reason. You could read that as being arrogant (i.e. he can see things from your viewpoint but you can't see things from his viewpoint), but that would be a very easily-offended interpretation. I would read it as being purely sympathetic, i.e. he thinks you have a legitimate case and he respects it, even though he disagrees. It's a way of acknowledging the validity of your perspective, your worldview, "where you are coming from".
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| « Last Edit: Jun 21st, 2010, 12:28pm by Fritzlein » |
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leo
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Re: Round 5 Nombril v. 722caasi: 722caasi disquali
« Reply #27 on: Jun 21st, 2010, 12:33pm » |
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My crappy evening connection cut me off and Fritzlein already replied meanwhile.
I had clipboarded my message though, so I'm posting it anyway ^^
@chessandgo: "I know where you're coming from" is a highly idiomatic way of saying "I understand your point of view".
The first time I saw the phrase I was perplex too
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ocmiente
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Re: Round 5 Nombril v. 722caasi: 722caasi disquali
« Reply #28 on: Jun 21st, 2010, 1:05pm » |
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on Jun 21st, 2010, 11:31am, omar wrote:
Thinking about this a bit more I guess if I just throw out the most recent two move in the move list for spectators, that would be easiest way to implement it and work regardless of the time controls for the game. |
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Seems like sometimes good moves can persist for a couple of turns, so maybe it should be 2 moves for each player - or 4 turns total - I think.
For AWL games, that would average about a 4 minute delay if I'm doing the math right... 1 minute per turn... 4 turns... 4 minutes?
I still tend to confuse move, turn, ply
Anyway, it would be cool to see this implemented - and I'm sure I'm not the first to think of this spectator delay feature - I just don't have the forum search skills to credit the right person.
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Korhil
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Re: Round 5 Nombril v. 722caasi: 722caasi disquali
« Reply #29 on: Jun 21st, 2010, 4:30pm » |
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on Jun 21st, 2010, 11:31am, omar wrote:| Thinking about this a bit more I guess if I just throw out the most recent two move in the move list for spectators, that would be easiest way to implement it and work regardless of the time controls for the game. |
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This seems to be the best solution since it avoids having to put up layers of security in many other places.
This solution also gets around the possibility of a player being able to 'phone a friend' and ask for moves.
Cheers,
Martin
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