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Topic: Round 5 Nombril v. 722caasi: 722caasi disqualified (Read 13928 times) |
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chessandgo
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Arimaa player #1889
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Re: Round 5 Nombril v. 722caasi: 722caasi disquali
« Reply #45 on: Jun 23rd, 2010, 4:33am » |
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I don't expect that to happen, and I don't feel like I need to have an answer ready. If someone feels like he wouldn't like his games being commentated live, he can make that clear, and I won't commentate when he's playing. (edit: not that I'm commentating any game these days anyway)
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| « Last Edit: Jun 23rd, 2010, 4:34am by chessandgo » |
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megajester
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Re: Round 5 Nombril v. 722caasi: 722caasi disquali
« Reply #46 on: Jun 23rd, 2010, 7:43am » |
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Chessandgo's placing more importance on learning the game than winning is very admirable. But Jean, how would you feel if you lost to somebody in the World Championship because of cheating? I don't know about you, but I would feel as if somebody stole something from me. How would you feel if the community didn't care, saying it's more important to increase our knowledge about Arimaa than to prevent people from cheating? I would feel very disappointed and frustrated, and would stop taking the WC seriously. In fact I doubt I would bother taking part.
Right from the very beginning my vision of the League has been of a serious team competition that you can get enthusiastic about, not simply a glorified way of pairing players or of getting some practice in before the WC. And I believe we do have that now. I think the teams by now have built up quite a following, with players working hard to win and teammates rooting for them.
However we now have a situation where cheating is easy and everybody knows how to do it. From now on whenever a player plays better than usual, or plays the same moves the spectators spot, he will come under suspicion. Players will feel as if they have to choose between cheating and winning or playing honourably and losing.
If the League spirit is to continue, this situation is utterly unacceptable.
Therefore, my preferred solution is to delay the publishing of the moves once they've been played by 5 minutes, or another reasonable period. It's the most watertight solution anybody's come up with yet. Yes, you will have the situation where players come into the chatroom before the spectators see the last moves, but I think it's worth it if our commentators feel free to provide their valuable insights. I think we'll be surprised how quickly we get used to it.
Now a question to Omar: How difficult is this to implement? Could this be implemented before Thursday next week (1 July), when the first of the Round 6 games might be played?
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| « Last Edit: Jun 23rd, 2010, 7:47am by megajester » |
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The_Jeh
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Arimaa player #634
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Re: Round 5 Nombril v. 722caasi: 722caasi disquali
« Reply #47 on: Jun 23rd, 2010, 10:03am » |
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on Jun 23rd, 2010, 7:43am, megajester wrote:| Yes, you will have the situation where players come into the chatroom before the spectators see the last moves |
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It could be set up to display all the moves immediately once the game is over. And I hate to mention this, since Fritz might use it as a reason to keep silent, but none of this guards too well against commentary on strategy. On the other hand, it doesn't guard against computers, either, so it might be as good as we can get online.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 23rd, 2010, 10:12am by The_Jeh » |
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Hippo
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Re: Round 5 Nombril v. 722caasi: 722caasi disquali
« Reply #48 on: Jun 23rd, 2010, 10:38am » |
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Wow, I absolutely missed that thread. What to say ... The server side solution is really good choice. I agree there is no problem to log from diferent IP's. After I lost game to woh I am playing in configuration with 2 computers ... game running on one connection and watching on other connection. So I am almost sure I have not lost the information.
Unfortunately the delay would work against that, but this is tiny drawback compared to safety it gives.
Of course there could be other cheating ... including computer power (in near future it could matter) or better human power (at least two cheaters included) ... if team Europa makes a meeting, we could play with c&g suggesting moves to whoever plays ...
Much easier way not requiring meeting is just to tell login information to him and he logs as you and plays the game.
It would be better not to play from the usual connection, but whoever can play during holiday at a hotel ...
(I hope you understand that I don't expect it would ever happen ... but I am not sure with my English to rather state it explicitly.)
... I don't expect marwin was cheating, but he used 2 of the several moves I have suggested ... I don't remember in which game 
And I have told korhil was in chatroom during his league game and we was commenting it really hard. I have noticed it just when his opponent came and korhil started chatting. I have not went through the chat to see if there could be a suspiction to play according the chat, but how could we know if he was really watching the chat?
Yes, he didn't try to hide under another account so we could expect it is just his bad habbit to never leave the chatroom.
[edit]I have just noticed it is discussed in another thread.[/edit]
P.S.: And I still think we could stay on path of honor.
P.P.S.: I am in Puzzle Hunt comunity, in our first hunt we were playing "on the edge of rules" or even worse. When I have read what the best teams write about their missions, I went to the as honor path as possible. What is interesting ... all indicias lead to conclusion the best teams never cheat, while there are teams in the 2nd half cheating. Fortunately the puzzle hunts have only moral winners so the comunity chosen not to distract itself by the cheaters at all.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 23rd, 2010, 12:53pm by Hippo » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Round 5 Nombril v. 722caasi: 722caasi disquali
« Reply #49 on: Jun 23rd, 2010, 4:34pm » |
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on Jun 23rd, 2010, 10:03am, The_Jeh wrote:| And I hate to mention this, since Fritz might use it as a reason to keep silent, but none of this guards too well against commentary on strategy. |
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I thought about that, and I can live with it at a 4-ply delay. If you are always two turns late in doing the right strategy, you will lose almost all the races anyway.
Everyone is right to point out all the other kinds of cheating that will not be fixed by a broadcast delay. That's why I said in my original post that if Arimaa continues to grow and get more serious, we will either need sworn witnesses present with each player, or will need to have the World Championship become a live tournament. It is something to keep in mind for the future, especially if computers rise to the level of World Championship contenders. But maybe the community will stay small, the prizes will stay small, computers will stay mediocre, the community will stay collegial, and the best solution for us will be to do the best we can over the Internet. For three or five years, anyway, that's what I expect.
Even if I was pretty sure that other types of cheating were going on, it would be no reason for me to stop giving commentary. 
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Korhil
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Re: Round 5 Nombril v. 722caasi: 722caasi disquali
« Reply #50 on: Jun 23rd, 2010, 5:57pm » |
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on Jun 23rd, 2010, 4:34pm, Fritzlein wrote:| It is something to keep in mind for the future, especially if computers rise to the level of World Championship contenders. |
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Given that currently that computers aren't up to that standard, it's hard for someone to cheat alone.
A 4 ply delay will eliminate the opportunistic ability to get outside information from observers.
The methods remaining can't really be stopped, but I don't expect anyone would go to that length given that it's mostly just pride that is on the line.
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Hippo
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Re: Round 5 Nombril v. 722caasi: 722caasi disquali
« Reply #51 on: Jun 24th, 2010, 3:10pm » |
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Seems Omar have implemented the 2+2 turns delay already. The postal games I was watching went to past .
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FireBorn
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Re: Round 5 Nombril v. 722caasi: 722caasi disquali
« Reply #52 on: Jun 24th, 2010, 4:18pm » |
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Does anyone else have a problem with the pacing of the game being screwed up by a move-delay? Like, what if a move that took a player 2 minutes went by quickly because his next move took 15 seconds. To an observer, the 2 minute move would take 15 seconds, wouldn't it?
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