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Topic: Rescheduled Games (Read 10756 times) |
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Nombril
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Re: Rescheduled Games
« Reply #15 on: Sep 4th, 2012, 9:26pm » |
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Maybe this should be moved to another forum... but I thought I would continue the above discussion by pointing out:
on Oct 11th, 2010, 2:11pm, Nombril wrote:...
Since the gameroom already has an automatic 15 min grace period, I suggest that a forfeit be automatic after 15 min. A substitution can be prepared in the meantime, but should NOT start until after the 15 min window has run out. Probably a 5 min window (so 15-20 min after the original scheduled time) would be sufficient time for the game with the sub to be started.
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I still think there should be a clear line between when the original game should start and when substitutions should start, now we have an example for what can happen 
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megajester
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Re: Rescheduled Games
« Reply #16 on: Sep 5th, 2012, 12:17am » |
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If anybody is confused, please read the following except from the official rules (click on the link in my signature to read the full text):
8. SUBSTITUTION
Either one of the following procedures must be followed in order.
8.1 Player Resignation
8.1.1 The official player must state in his team's forum clubhouse thread that he will be unable to play his scheduled game. All subsequent discussion takes place in the clubhouse thread, or the results of any discussion that takes place elsewhere must be recorded in this thread.
[...]
8.1.3 If the manager is available, he has the final decision as to who will be the substitute. After announcing his decision he may not change it unless the substitute subsequently resigns his position as per step 8.1.1. If the manager is unavailable a subsitution can only be made at the game time as per section 8.2.
[...]
8.2 Player Absence
8.2.1 Within an hour before the game time, an official player's teammates may follow the procedure below as a precaution. However the player selected by the following procedure only becomes the official player when 15 minutes have passed after the official game time, and the official player has failed to turn up.
As you can see, there are two circumstances under which a substitution can take place:
1. The player indicates beforehand he will not be able to play his game (resignation). A player who has resigned is no longer the official player, even if he turns up at the game time. His replacement is the official player as long as he wants to be.
2. The player just goes AWOL and is nowhere to be seen at the game time (absence). Wait 15 minutes, and then any teammate can stand in.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 5th, 2012, 4:37am by megajester » |
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wabbott
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Rescheduled Game: balaclava vs. wabbott
« Reply #17 on: Sep 7th, 2012, 1:30pm » |
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balaclava and I have agreed to reschedule our game originally scheduled for 8 PM US Eastern Daylight Time on 9/8/2012
The new time is 1 PM US Eastern Daylight Time on 9/8/2012
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balaclava
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Re: Rescheduled Games
« Reply #18 on: Sep 7th, 2012, 2:58pm » |
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I confirm what wabbott said. Our game is now scheduled for 1PM EDT on 9/8/2012.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Rescheduled Games
« Reply #19 on: Sep 8th, 2012, 1:41am » |
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I just read the chat archive and learned what happened with the scheduled round 3 game of Aamir vs. clyring. Oh boy. Megajester, I don't envy you in trying to make a ruling about it.
I am writing this post, not to advocate a particular decision, but to suggest that no matter what the ruling is for the present, there is a fundamental flaw in the rules.
on Sep 5th, 2012, 12:17am, megajester wrote:As you can see, there are two circumstances under which a substitution can take place:
1. The player indicates beforehand he will not be able to play his game (resignation). A player who has resigned is no longer the official player, even if he turns up at the game time. His replacement is the official player as long as he wants to be.
2. The player just goes AWOL and is nowhere to be seen at the game time (absence). Wait 15 minutes, and then any teammate can stand in. |
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The situation tonight makes it clear that a team can gain advantage by not officially designating a substitute in advance, even when the scheduled player knows in advance he will not be able to play. The optimal strategy is to have multiple substitutes standing ready and only make a call as to which to use after fifteen minutes since the scheduled game time have elapsed.
Why wait? Because you might learn something useful before deciding. For example, if the opponent fails to show up and the opposing team has no substitute present, you should substitute someone rated lower than the original player to collect the forfeit win without any budget penalty. You're just shooting yourself in the foot if you unnecessarily substitute in a higher-rated player.
Another reason to wait is that the opposing team might also know in advanced that they need to make a substitution. If the opponents are foolish enough to publicly declare who their substitute will be, the strength of the new opponent could affect the optimal substitute for your side.
It is a problem in itself that the rules make it advantageous to wait to the last minute to sort things out, insofar as it creates confusion and (potentially) hard feelings. Unfortunately, the rule gap is worse than that. What if both original players can't (or don't) make it to the game? Then both teams have an incentive not to give away their substitution strategy.
If I understood correctly, the Atlantics had the option of replacing clyring with aaaa or browni3141, although neither would be optimal because aaaa would not have time to play a complete game, and browni3141 would be rather expensive. The Rockies had the option of replacing Aamir with ChrisB or forfeiting, although ChrisB would be expensive and the forfeit would incur a negative point. But which team should be required to make the decision first?
If the Rockies decide first and accept a forfeit, then of course the Atlantics should substitute in aaaa to collect the win with no chance of aaaa having to leave and lose by time out. But if the Rockies decide first and play ChrisB, then the Atlantics would rather substitute in browni3141 to have a good chance of winning, despite the cost.
If the Atlantics decide first and substitute in browni3141, then the Rockies should definitely choose to forfeit, since there is a chance ChrisB would lose even after busting the budget to play. On the other hand, if the Atlantics had first decided to substitute in aaaa, then the Rockies should probably sub in ChrisB to collect the timeout win instead of forfeiting. (Yes, the swing between forfeit and win is only 3 League points and the budget hit is slightly greater, but taking into account that the Atlantics would lose 2 league points tips the balance in favor of ChrisB playing. Anyway, the ratings could well have been slightly different making it a clear-cut case that whichever team decides last does better.)
It is now clear to me that whenever both teams need to substitute, and both teams have a choice, the situation can quickly become untenable. Everyone involved in this situation tried to be sporting, with ChrisB saying he would forfeit (since that is what the team should do without knowing the Atlantics' situation) and with browni3141 saying he would substitute (since that is what the team should do without knowing the Rockies' situation). Now that the issue has come up, however, it would be asking for trouble to leave the rules as they are and hope for a good outcome next time.
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ChrisB
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Re: Rescheduled Games
« Reply #20 on: Sep 8th, 2012, 9:21am » |
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on Sep 8th, 2012, 1:41am, Fritzlein wrote:
Another reason to wait is that the opposing team might also know in advanced that they need to make a substitution. If the opponents are foolish enough to publicly declare who their substitute will be, the strength of the new opponent could affect the optimal substitute for your side.
It is a problem in itself that the rules make it advantageous to wait to the last minute to sort things out, insofar as it creates confusion and (potentially) hard feelings. Unfortunately, the rule gap is worse than that. What if both original players can't (or don't) make it to the game? Then both teams have an incentive not to give away their substitution strategy.
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Would this be a fix?
Allow teams to only declare publically that "Player X has been substituted" but not say by whom. But before making this declaration the team would need to name the particular substitute in a private message to a reliable third party (say, megajester). Then the team could reveal the name of the substitute at any time where the timestamp of this revealation is after the timestamp of the private message.
If a team forgets to send the private message first, they will need to send a second public message after the private message has been sent.
If a team decides to forfeit, that sub could simply be no one.
If the manager is available, the manager's decision would take precedence over any other team member's decision.
In a chatroom situation, such as what occured about 12 hours ago, team members could agree on their decision by sending private messages to each other.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 8th, 2012, 9:22am by ChrisB » |
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megajester
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Re: Rescheduled Games
« Reply #21 on: Sep 8th, 2012, 2:56pm » |
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Oh. My. Giddy. Aunt.
First things first...
Aamir vs. browni3141 stands, and here's why:
8.2.1 [...] the player selected by the following procedure only becomes the official player when 15 minutes have passed after the official game time, and the official player has failed to turn up.
This means that at the point in time where all three conditions have been met, the original player is considered substituted:
- A substitute player has been selected,
- 15 minutes have passed after the official game time,
- the official player has failed to turn up.
Therefore it doesn't matter that Aamir turned up after the 15 minutes; he was still the official player because no substitute player had been selected.
By the same token browni3141 was the substitute for clyring, because he had been selected, "by consensus" (8.2.2.1), and the other two conditions had been met. 15 minutes had passed, and clyring was absent.
Of course another good reason for making this ruling is that all representatives of both teams present were agreed on the solution. As always, my ears are open to objections.
(A note: This rule was kind of accidentally-on-purpose written so that if there was nobody around to substitute, both players could turn up almost an hour late and still play [because the game would still be on the system], whereas if there were substitutes around they would not have to wait a whole hour. Which is another debate. Perhaps a better idea would be to say that teammates have until T+15 mins to select a substitute who is fielded at T+15 mins if the original player is absent, otherwise the game is forfeited even if the original player turns up.)
Now to the real debate... I agree something needs to be done.
We already have 8.2.2.1 to guide teams to when making a substitute selection in case of player absence: The manager has the final decision. However if the manager is unavailable to decide who will play, the other players will try to reach a consensus. If they fail to reach a consensus the highest rated eligible volunteer takes precedence. For clarity, we could amend this to say that if the manager is absent the highest ranking team member present makes the final decision.
Paradoxical situations such as today's only occur when both players are absent and two selections must be made simultaneously. However I think ChrisB's solution is a bit complicated. My personal suggestion for a quick-and-easy solution is to say the Gold team must select its substitute first then Silver. We already have an inherent imbalance between the Gold and Silver pieces that is compensated by playing once with each against each team throughout the season; we could say this compensates Gold for being at a slight disadvantage.
We are still left with the fact that it may be advantageous for a team to defer a substitution on player resignation to the actual game time. But if we have a clear way to solve scenarios such as today's I don't see a reason to remove the option to appoint a sub in advance if the teams want to keep it.
I would like to thank everyone for their patience this season, we have had many a glitch on the wiki, and two rounds of controversy because of rules that could have been written better.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 8th, 2012, 3:13pm by megajester » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Rescheduled Games
« Reply #22 on: Sep 8th, 2012, 3:30pm » |
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Good plan, Joel. Making the Gold team declare first is simple, clear, and prevents a standoff. In this case, ChrisB would have had to go first and say he wouldn't sub, after which the Atlantics could have selected aaaa to be their sub, collecting a forfeit win. Not good for the Gold team, but good for the league to avoid building an infrastructure for secret, simultaneous submissions.
I think a simple, clear solution is all we need at present, given the high degree of sportsmanship on display in the AWL. If the procedure breaks down again later, we can deal with the fallout then. (And by "we" I mean "megajester"  )
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browni3141
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Re: Rescheduled Games
« Reply #23 on: Sep 8th, 2012, 3:35pm » |
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on Sep 8th, 2012, 2:56pm, megajester wrote:
My personal suggestion for a quick-and-easy solution is to say the Gold team must select its substitute first then Silver. We already have an inherent imbalance between the Gold and Silver pieces that is compensated by playing once with each against each team throughout the season; we could say this compensates Gold for being at a slight disadvantage. |
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I don't understand. Gold is at a disadvantage since they have to commit to a sub before silver does, but I don't see where he is compensated for it.
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megajester
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Re: Rescheduled Games
« Reply #24 on: Sep 8th, 2012, 3:48pm » |
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Maybe this time Gold would have been at a disadvantage in practice, but in theory Gold will have the advantage of knowing exactly who Silver has available, and possibly using that knowledge to force an advantageous outcome. Fortune will still favour the team that has more people available.
Note: Any way of moving replies 19-24 on this thread to the Roundtable thread?
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| « Last Edit: Sep 8th, 2012, 3:54pm by megajester » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Rescheduled Games
« Reply #25 on: Sep 8th, 2012, 6:41pm » |
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on Sep 8th, 2012, 3:48pm, megajester wrote:| Note: Any way of moving replies 19-24 on this thread to the Roundtable thread? |
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Yes, but I have forgotten the admin password. Maybe aaaa remembers from when he re-organized all the categories for us.
Quote:| Maybe this time Gold would have been at a disadvantage in practice, but in theory Gold will have the advantage of knowing exactly who Silver has available, and possibly using that knowledge to force an advantageous outcome. |
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No, I'm pretty sure that, whatever the options available to each team, Gold would do worse declaring first than declaring second.
Quote:| Fortune will still favour the team that has more people available. |
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True. If you have only one option available, that's just like having to declare first. But as both sides get more options, the advantage of going second grows.
I'm not bothered by hanging this disadvantage on the Gold team. (A) It only matters when both teams substitute, and (B) everyone has to be the Gold team an equal number of times.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 8th, 2012, 6:49pm by Fritzlein » |
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aaaa
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Re: Rescheduled Games
« Reply #26 on: Sep 8th, 2012, 7:24pm » |
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on Sep 8th, 2012, 6:41pm, Fritzlein wrote:| Yes, but I have forgotten the admin password. Maybe aaaa remembers from when he re-organized all the categories for us. |
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Same thing here, but I do think that moving whole threads to different boards is nowhere near as dubious as moving posts from one thread to another, as that feels tantamount to rewriting a conversation.
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megajester
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Re: Rescheduled Games
« Reply #27 on: Sep 17th, 2012, 7:41am » |
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Wiki has been updated with Round 3 standings and Round 4 ("Next Round") ratings. Managers may revise their rosters if necessary.
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ginrunner
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Re: Rescheduled Games
« Reply #28 on: Sep 20th, 2012, 11:38am » |
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VinceS and I are rescheduling our game to 4pm Saturday (Arizona), 1am Sunday(GMT).
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VinceS
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Re: Rescheduled Games
« Reply #29 on: Sep 21st, 2012, 4:31am » |
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I agree to the new gametime, but I think I am in GMT+1 (Germany). But 4 pm Arizona = 1 am Germany should be right.
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