Author |
Topic: 2009 Postal Mixer (Read 6130 times) |
|
omar
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #2
Gender: 
Posts: 1003
|
 |
Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #15 on: Mar 29th, 2009, 12:07pm » |
 Quote  Modify
|
I don't mind allowing computer assistance, but there are more aspects of it that we need to consider.
First I think it would be nice if anyone intending to use computer assistance would announce it before the start of the tournament. If I get matched with someone who is a few hundred rating points below me I will probably spend less time on the move then moves with stronger players. But if my lower rated opponent is using assistance he may defeat me because I underestimated my opponents ability. So I would at least like to know before hand if my opponent is planning to use assistance or not.
Can a player use computer assistance in some games and not in others? Or if they announce they will use computer assistance they have to use it in all games? Ideally a player should be able to use assistance in some games and not in others. I may chose to use assistance in games where my opponent is using assistance and not use it in games where my opponent is playing alone. I'll need to setup some way to allow players to indicate (after they have been paired) in which games they will be using computer assistance and have some kind of a deadline for announcing. Humm... but what if my opponent chooses to use assistance right before the deadline and I get stuck playing without assistance 
Also should games where computer assistance is used be unrated? Otherwise it will make our rating system inaccurate. Even the WHR rating system using only HH games will be effected by this. Upsets where the lower rated player used assistance to defeat a higher rated player that did not use assistance will effect the accuracy. Remember a rating system is only as accurate as the games you put into it. Just when we thought we had a more accurate rating system that can be used to seed tournaments, we would start corrupting it if we counted the games where computer assistance was used. At the very least I would suggest playing assisted games with a different account. But a new account won't have established ratings so I'll have to manually set them to initially match the rating of the established account.
It is nice to be able to have rules that are enforceable, but sometime you just can't avoid it and the best you can do is ask the players to follow the unenforceable rule. I prefer to avoid unenforceable rule if possible, but as long as we don't have the players sitting at a table where the TD can observe them, I think we will have some rules that can't be enforced. I don't think that we can in general adopt a policy that unenforceable rules are not allowed. The rules page of the Postal Mixer tries to nicely ask the players to not use any kind of assistance:
Quote:| Since these are postal games and there is ample time for a player to think about the moves, the players must be careful to make sure that the moves they make are truly moves that were produced by them. A player must be careful not to discuss the game or a particular move with anyone else. A player must not imitate the moves from one game over to another game. A player must not use a computer program to suggest or evaluate moves. Although a player may use the 'Plan' option provided in the game window to plan out a move without input from any other source. |
|
Ideally I should just drop the whole paragraph from the rules because I can't enforce people not getting assistance from other humans either. Humm... I don't think I would want the Postal Mixer to be like this; especially if the games are going to be rated and played with our regular accounts.
At the very least I need more time to think about this and will not make any changes for this years Postal Mixer.
|
| « Last Edit: Mar 29th, 2009, 12:10pm by omar » |
 IP Logged |
|
|
|
Fritzlein
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #706
Gender:
Posts: 5928
|
|
Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #16 on: Mar 29th, 2009, 2:49pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Your raise good questions, Omar. I hadn't carefully thought through some of the implications of freestyle play.
For ratings I think the simplest solution is to have all games be unrated if they include one or two non-traditional players (cyborgs or teams). The seeding could be based on the highest-rated component of the compound team. These two rules would solve all rating-related issues, right?
Also for simplicity, I think it would be best for each entrant to be the same in all games. If I'm going to use Bomb on any move of any game, I should be considered Fritzlein/assisted for all moves of all games. With this simple rule you would probably choose to be unassisted for all games, and lose the option of using computer assistance against only opponents who used it; do you see a problem with that? It seems to me that people who want to play unassisted unless the opponent doesn't must be motivated by a feeling that computer assistance is "unfair". I think that feeling misses the point of freestyle play.
I agree with you that ultimately we have to say what the rules are and trust the players to follow them. Even in a freestyle tournament, nothing prevents me from claiming to be playing unassisted when I'm not. So my motivation in advocating to allow cyborgs isn't purely that I want to get away from an unenforceable rule; it's also that I think that cyborg players are cool in their own right.
I understand your decision to leave the rules unchanged for the present year. I doubt anyone will be disappointed, because nobody stepped forward during this discussion to say they would be interested in playing with assistance. Thus the rule debate has been entirely moot.
I'm jazzed that we already have 11 players signed up for the Postal Mixer, and nearly two weeks of registration to go. We could have a great turnout this year!
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
mistre
Forum Guru
Gender:
Posts: 553
|
|
Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #17 on: Apr 6th, 2009, 5:55am » |
Quote Modify
|
I hope to see some new faces join the postal mixer - so far we only have the returning vets.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Simon
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #1198
Gender:
Posts: 125
|
|
Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #18 on: Apr 7th, 2009, 11:47am » |
Quote Modify
|
I would like to join the postal mixer, but I would need to delay payment of the deposit for a few days. I started the process to associate my bank account with my paypal account on Sunday and verified the account and transferred money to paypal today, but it says it takes 6-8 business days for money to be transferred from the bank account to paypal. Then it might take time to transfer to omar... I could pay instantly if omar would accept credit card-based payments though.
I also can't play too many games because of concerns about available time, at least until the end of April (but I suppose I could just do the startup move, then burn my reserve...).
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
omar
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #2
Gender:
Posts: 1003
|
|
Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #19 on: Apr 7th, 2009, 3:28pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Simon. It is OK if the payment gets a little late, since you are still setting up the payPal account. Thanks for letting me know.
You can sign up for just one or two games if that's all that your schedule will allow. Also you will find that the time control is very relaxed.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Simon
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #1198
Gender:
Posts: 125
|
|
Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #20 on: Apr 8th, 2009, 7:07am » |
Quote Modify
|
Thanks. But, I've just checked to see what happens if I start the procedure to make a payment right now, and it seems to say that it will take the money from my bank account, and only use my credit card if my bank account doesn't have enough money (it does have enough money). I didn't try this before since the postal mixer registration page said to fund the paypal account first. But it looks like I don't have to wait for the funds to reach paypal, I can directly use paypal to send money from my bank account already.
However, before I do so, I would like to ask if I should wait for the paypal account to be funded, since that's what the registration page seems to suggest?
edit - It seems logical that it would take the same time for money to be taken from my bank account whether it's going to my paypal account or someone else's. The transfer between paypal accounts probably works immediately. In that case, I will save 1 day by waiting for money to reach paypal, since I sent the money to fund the account yesterday.
The dilemma about the number of games is in part that I will be strongly tempted to spend unwise amounts of time on them instead of studying, and the temptation will be stronger the more games there are. On the other hand, I will have relatively more free time after exams are over, and then I will probably want to have several games.
|
| « Last Edit: Apr 8th, 2009, 7:20am by Simon » |
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Fritzlein
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #706
Gender:
Posts: 5928
|
|
Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #21 on: Apr 8th, 2009, 9:29am » |
Quote Modify
|
on Apr 8th, 2009, 7:07am, Simon wrote:| The dilemma about the number of games is in part that I will be strongly tempted to spend unwise amounts of time on them instead of studying, and the temptation will be stronger the more games there are. On the other hand, I will have relatively more free time after exams are over, and then I will probably want to have several games. |
|
Let me encourage you to start with three to five games. That way the whole tournament won't be wrecked by a blunder in one game, but at the same time the commitment won't be overwhelming. If you have more time later, then you can just analyze more deeply in your few games.
I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed at the moment, and am regretting having signed up for 13 games. Maybe Omar will be kind enough to reduce the number for me.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
mistre
Forum Guru
Gender:
Posts: 553
|
|
Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #22 on: Apr 8th, 2009, 12:15pm » |
Quote Modify
|
I think I was a bit ambitious as well with 12. I would like to reduce mine to 8. Also I would like my current rating to be reflected when my opponents are selected.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Fritzlein
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #706
Gender:
Posts: 5928
|
|
Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #23 on: Apr 8th, 2009, 2:26pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Apr 8th, 2009, 12:15pm, mistre wrote:| Also I would like my current rating to be reflected when my opponents are selected. |
|
I believe the seeding will be based on the Whole History Ratings generated by woh.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Janzert
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #247
Gender:
Posts: 1016
|
|
Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #24 on: Apr 10th, 2009, 6:33pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Just dropping a note here in case Omar doesn't notice the PM or email, that I did send a registration for OpFor to Omar yesterday.
Janzert
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Fritzlein
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #706
Gender:
Posts: 5928
|
|
Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #25 on: Apr 10th, 2009, 8:29pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Yay! Thanks for joining again this year, Janzert. I'm eager to see if we humans can put in a better showing against OpFor this year.
I guess your entry raises a question: if we are using HvH Whole History Ratings to seed the tournament, where do we seed OpFor? I guess for bots the game room rating is the only alternative.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
omar
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #2
Gender:
Posts: 1003
|
|
Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #26 on: Apr 10th, 2009, 9:30pm » |
Quote Modify
|
I've setup the games for the postal mixer. Look under "Postal Games" or "View Games" from the postal mixer main page. Let me know if there is any problem. I used the ratings April 10th snap shot of the WHR ratings. For bot_OpFor I used the gameroom rating.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Fritzlein
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #706
Gender:
Posts: 5928
|
|
Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #27 on: Apr 11th, 2009, 10:55am » |
Quote Modify
|
That was a great idea to schedule all the games in advance so that we can see what the pairings are, in case there are errors. Thanks, Omar! I don't see any problems.
Compared to last year we have the same number of humans but only one bot instead of two. Everyone who asked for twelve or fewer games got as many as they wanted, but the maximum for game-hungry players went down to fourteen from seventeen because this year more players signed up for a more moderate number of games.
Omar, I can't remember if you implemented my feature request from bygone years: Will the clocks of the Gold players start at the scheduled game time?
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
omar
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #2
Gender:
Posts: 1003
|
|
Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #28 on: Apr 11th, 2009, 3:14pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Apr 11th, 2009, 10:55am, Fritzlein wrote:| Omar, I can't remember if you implemented my feature request from bygone years: Will the clocks of the Gold players start at the scheduled game time? |
|
Yes the clocks will start on all the games tomorrow at the scheduled time. At least it is supposed to; keep your fingers crossed
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Simon
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #1198
Gender:
Posts: 125
|
|
Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #29 on: Apr 12th, 2009, 4:21am » |
Quote Modify
|
So, I am assuming from the discussion that I can copy moves from Fritzlein's games in this same postal mixer, given that I am not playing him.
edit: and the time has passed but the clocks don't seem to be ticking...
edit 2 - I moved against opfor before checking to see if it was vulnerable to bait and tackle - oh well, I guess I will have to work for my victory.
|
| « Last Edit: Apr 12th, 2009, 5:53am by Simon » |
IP Logged |
|
|
|
|
Home
Help
Search
Members
Login
Register
Reply
Notify of replies
Send Topic
Print