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Topic: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open? (Read 13764 times) |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #30 on: Aug 18th, 2009, 9:30am » |
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on Aug 17th, 2009, 6:45am, Janzert wrote:| One thing I'd like to raise though is that I would really like to see the previous years champion given an automatic slot. |
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Could you explain more why this is important to you, and what you see as the pros and cons of exempting one (or more) bots from qualifying?
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Fritzlein
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #31 on: Aug 18th, 2009, 9:35am » |
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on Aug 17th, 2009, 6:34am, aaaa wrote:| A developer could fraudulently make moves on behalf of his bot. |
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This is the flip side of the cheating issue. Since bots are weak, we don't have to worry much about humans getting bot assistance to cheat in the World Championship, but we do have to worry about bots getting human assistance to cheat in the Computer Championship.
Would you care to propose a solution?
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aaaa
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #32 on: Aug 18th, 2009, 10:45am » |
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Possibly a weakening of the current tournament after making it open. Floating double elimination until X bots remain (possibly dynamically calculated based on participation), who will then receive an extra life. With seeding becoming more important in this structure, protect last year's top-Y finishers. Y could also be dynamically determined by specifically looking at the record of that year. E.g., those with a plus or non-negative score, for this year making Y=2 and Y=4 respectively.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 18th, 2009, 12:13pm by aaaa » |
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Arimabuff
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #33 on: Aug 18th, 2009, 11:21am » |
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on Aug 18th, 2009, 9:35am, Fritzlein wrote:
This is the flip side of the cheating issue. Since bots are weak, we don't have to worry much about humans getting bot assistance to cheat in the World Championship, but we do have to worry about bots getting human assistance to cheat in the Computer Championship.
Would you care to propose a solution? |
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Aren't bots running on Omar's computer for the important games? That's all that counts in my view. If a weak bot make it to play these games, it'll be massacred by the legitimate ones and the fraud will become self-evident.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 18th, 2009, 11:22am by Arimabuff » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #34 on: Aug 18th, 2009, 2:27pm » |
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on Aug 18th, 2009, 11:21am, Arimabuff wrote:
Aren't bots running on Omar's computer for the important games? |
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Yes, the tournament games are run on Omar's computer, but it would be a shame for some bot to not even make it that far after having been squeezed out by a cheater in the qualifying. Then it would be small consolation to see the cheater eliminated from the real tournament.
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Arimabuff
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #35 on: Aug 18th, 2009, 4:17pm » |
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on Aug 18th, 2009, 2:27pm, Fritzlein wrote:
Yes, the tournament games are run on Omar's computer, but it would be a shame for some bot to not even make it that far after having been squeezed out by a cheater in the qualifying. Then it would be small consolation to see the cheater eliminated from the real tournament. |
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But what would be the incentive of the cheater then? I mean I could imagine someone cheating for a big reward or even the satisfaction of being lauded as the best but simply to sneak into a competition where you'll undergo a humiliating defeat seems kinda weird to me. Don't you think? Besides you don’t really believe that a bot with an actual shot at winning the WCC could be nudged out that way, do you ?
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jdb
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #36 on: Aug 18th, 2009, 5:39pm » |
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I think the discussion about cheating is pretty much moot. If the bot is run on the developer's machine, its pretty much impossible to prevent.
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Janzert
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #37 on: Aug 18th, 2009, 7:50pm » |
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on Aug 18th, 2009, 9:30am, Fritzlein wrote:
Could you explain more why this is important to you, and what you see as the pros and cons of exempting one (or more) bots from qualifying? |
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Most of my reasons for wanting the previous champion in the tournament whether or not it qualifies are more emotional than logical. I want to see continuity from the previous tournament, I want to see as a developer how my bot performs against the current champion, I want to see how much further the current field has progressed than the champion. I would have absolutely hated it if bomb had been champion for so many years and then suddenly got knocked out by not even qualifying for the tournament.
For a slightly more logical basis. The qualifier is pretty much by definition less discriminating of the true abilities of the bots than the tournament will be (otherwise why have the tournament at all?). Winning the previous year's tournament is probably a fairly good discriminator as well. Although hard to say whether better or worse than the qualifier.
Janzert
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tize
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #38 on: Aug 19th, 2009, 11:36am » |
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At first I thought that last years champion should be given automatic entry, but should we give that to jdb or clueless2009cc. I mean its clueless2009cc that is the reigning champ, but that's not the bot that jdb will register, he will register an updated version of clueless (most likely stronger) or something new and unseen.
So to have continuity in the tournament from year to year omar should register the reigning champ, with automatic entry. And every developer can then register what ever bot they like.
Not sure I like this, we might get clueless to be both first and second.
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jdb
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #39 on: Aug 19th, 2009, 12:36pm » |
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on Aug 19th, 2009, 11:36am, tize wrote:At first I thought that last years champion should be given automatic entry, but should we give that to jdb or clueless2009cc. I mean its clueless2009cc that is the reigning champ, but that's not the bot that jdb will register, he will register an updated version of clueless (most likely stronger) or something new and unseen.
So to have continuity in the tournament from year to year omar should register the reigning champ, with automatic entry. And every developer can then register what ever bot they like.
Not sure I like this, we might get clueless to be both first and second. |
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IF this were to be done, it would make sense to enter clueless2009cc. However, this bot is available for play all the time, as will whatever bot wins the 2010 tournament. If someone wanted to compare the two winners, a match could be played at their leisure.
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Arimabuff
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #40 on: Aug 19th, 2009, 3:39pm » |
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If we want to keep the contest honest, we have to limit to one bot per owner. One easy way to cheat would be to have the exact same bot playing under different aliases, thus artificially increasing the chances of that bot to win the WCC. Another way would be to program one instance to be weak when playing another, thus increasing the points of that other instance.
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Janzert
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #41 on: Aug 19th, 2009, 6:23pm » |
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I would want the automatic entry to allow the author to enter whatever updated version he wanted. If he didn't have an updated version to enter then Omar could add the same version from the previous year, as was done with Bomb.
Both the new and the old version should not be entered as that allows an advantage to the new version because of the problems with self play. To wit, when a bot is improved the new version will often play disproportionately better against the old version than the actual improvement would suggest it should. There isn't even a need for the purposeful manipulation that Arimaabuff brings up, it tends to just naturally occur anyway.
Janzert
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| « Last Edit: Aug 19th, 2009, 6:24pm by Janzert » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #42 on: Aug 19th, 2009, 7:20pm » |
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on Aug 18th, 2009, 4:17pm, Arimabuff wrote:| I mean I could imagine someone cheating for a big reward or even the satisfaction of being lauded as the best but simply to sneak into a competition where you'll undergo a humiliating defeat seems kinda weird to me. Don't you think? |
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OK, you have persuaded me. Any bot that had to cheat to get in isn't going to win any games once it gets in, so it will actually lose money under the current prize structure. I don't see how we could prevent cheating in the qualifying, but the incentives aren't there, so it probably won't be an issue. If we suspect that someone has cheated, we can address it in subsequent years.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #43 on: Aug 19th, 2009, 7:39pm » |
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on Aug 19th, 2009, 6:23pm, Janzert wrote:| I would want the automatic entry to allow the author to enter whatever updated version he wanted. |
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I agree with that sentiment. Exemption from qualifying should be a courtesy extended to a developer, not to a version of a bot. Also I agree with JDB that if we want to pit different versions of a bot from different years against each other, we can do so outside of the Computer Championship. If a developer were allowed to enter more than one version, it could squeeze out up-and-coming contenders. In 2005 the strongest three bots were probably Bomb2005, Bomb2004, and Arimaanator, but it would have been silly to give Fotland all three medals.
So, if we are just trying to be nice to the developer with exemption from qualifying, it seems like a delicate balancing act. Whatever favor is extended to one developer is in equal proportion a hardship imposed on other developers.
I'm torn because we would definitely not want to deter the winning developer by the hassle of qualifying. It would also have been silly had Bomb been dethroned by default in 2006 because Fotland was too busy to qualify his winning bot from 2005. We want as many developers as possible to participate, whether or not they are likely to win, but the participation of the best bots is particularly desirable. The developers are doing a favor to arimaa.com to participate more than arimaa.com is doing the developers a favor to allow them to participate.
My current thought is this: force all developers to qualify, even the returning champion. If, at some point, our policy costs us the participation of a strong bot that we severely miss, then we can reconsider extending favors to the elite.
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Janzert
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #44 on: Aug 19th, 2009, 7:54pm » |
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One thing that maybe I wasn't completely clear with before. I don't see the automatic qualification as simply a favor to the previous champion. I think it is also a favor to the other developers that qualify as well as the all the spectators. The only one I actually see it as a disfavor to is the unfortunate developer that would have gotten the lowest seed but doesn't if the previous champion gets bumped up into that seed.
I also don't see it as terribly likely that the situation actually arises that the last champion doesn't qualify (at least as long as Omar attempts to qualify the previous champion if the developer themselves doesn't). But I would rather have the rule there than to be terribly disappointed if it does occur.
Janzert
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