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Topic: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open? (Read 13769 times) |
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arimaa_master
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #60 on: Oct 15th, 2009, 6:42am » |
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on Oct 15th, 2009, 6:01am, Fritzlein wrote:If Fotland doesn't return to active development this year, we may have the issue of whether to enter Bomb in the qualification process or not. Bomb is not the defending champion any more, so we needn't worry about continuity in that sense.
My feeling is that if there are seven or fewer other entrants, it is fine to add Bomb to fill out the field, but if there are eight or more active developers, then we shouldn't enter Bomb on behalf of an inactive developer. Even if Bomb would still be stronger than the bot in the eighth spot, I think it is less important to have the strongest field possible, and more important to include a bot with a future in front of it. Let's not have deadwood taking up a slot.
How do other people feel about this rule clarification? That is to say, we will automatically enter an unimproved reigning champion, but will not automatically enter an unimproved bot otherwise? |
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I completely support that (secretely hoping that Fotland will come back with the improved bomb - to smash the opponents again).
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Adanac
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #61 on: Oct 15th, 2009, 6:47am » |
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on Oct 15th, 2009, 6:01am, Fritzlein wrote:If Fotland doesn't return to active development this year, we may have the issue of whether to enter Bomb in the qualification process or not. Bomb is not the defending champion any more, so we needn't worry about continuity in that sense.
My feeling is that if there are seven or fewer other entrants, it is fine to add Bomb to fill out the field, but if there are eight or more active developers, then we shouldn't enter Bomb on behalf of an inactive developer. Even if Bomb would still be stronger than the bot in the eighth spot, I think it is less important to have the strongest field possible, and more important to include a bot with a future in front of it. Let's not have deadwood taking up a slot.
How do other people feel about this rule clarification? That is to say, we will automatically enter an unimproved reigning champion, but will not automatically enter an unimproved bot otherwise? |
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I agree with that. Now that Bomb has been de-throned I'd prefer to see an active developer get the 8th spot. As an added bonus, that would spare us the possibility of another boringly predictable 9-0 Human vs. Bomb challenge match.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 15th, 2009, 7:56am by Adanac » |
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RonWeasley
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #62 on: Oct 15th, 2009, 8:40am » |
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on Oct 15th, 2009, 6:01am, Fritzlein wrote:If Fotland doesn't return to active development this year, we may have the issue of whether to enter Bomb in the qualification process or not. Bomb is not the defending champion any more, so we needn't worry about continuity in that sense.
My feeling is that if there are seven or fewer other entrants, it is fine to add Bomb to fill out the field, but if there are eight or more active developers, then we shouldn't enter Bomb on behalf of an inactive developer. Even if Bomb would still be stronger than the bot in the eighth spot, I think it is less important to have the strongest field possible, and more important to include a bot with a future in front of it. Let's not have deadwood taking up a slot.
How do other people feel about this rule clarification? That is to say, we will automatically enter an unimproved reigning champion, but will not automatically enter an unimproved bot otherwise? |
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I prefer having the top 8 compete even if they include unimproved bots. I like the 8 competing bots being the best 8, even if #9 is actively being worked on. The bot left out can still arrange to play against the other bots, just not as part of the championship. I can see a problem running the qualifier and having to include thousands of abandoned bots, but we're not there yet.
In practice, it's hard to imagine an unimproved bot winning the challenge, so it's not a huge deal for me if we omit them as a reward for active development. If we go this route, we may have to think about our definition of "active development". Imagine a developer trying to cheat by changing a comment line and declaring the bot eligible. Hard to imagine someone doing this, but such surprises are possible.
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Janzert
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #63 on: Oct 15th, 2009, 9:23am » |
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Improved or unimproved makes no difference to me. The related distinction I would make is whether the developer submitted it.
I would still like to see the current champion given a slot even if it means Omar submits, qualifies, etc. the previous year's version. For all others I would rather the developer is required to submit it, run it through qualification and set it up on the tournament server. If the developer happens to be using the same version as last year that's fine with me, but at least they still have enough interest to invest the time necessary to get the engine in the tournament.
Janzert
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Fritzlein
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #64 on: Oct 15th, 2009, 11:17am » |
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on Oct 15th, 2009, 9:23am, Janzert wrote:| Improved or unimproved makes no difference to me. The related distinction I would make is whether the developer submitted it. |
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Yes, I guess that is the distinction I wanted to make too. If Fotland wants to go to all the hassle of qualifying and setting up Bomb on his own, then it doesn't bother me if Bomb hasn't improved. I wouldn't want to police it anyway. The clarification is just that Omar wouldn't be obliged to run the bot through the process unless it was the defending champion.
If Omar sets up a page to automatically track the qualifying standings, I may try running bot_Arimaanator through the paces, just for giggles. Would it make it into the top eight? I wouldn't take up a slot in any case, because I don't meet the other requirements of tournament participation.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 15th, 2009, 11:18am by Fritzlein » |
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jdb
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #65 on: Oct 17th, 2009, 6:46am » |
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I was reading over the rules regarding technical problems. In case of a technical problem, it might be easier to replay the game, instead of trying to resume it. It is easy to replay a game from the start, but it is tricky to resume a game.
In the event of a perceived technical problem, the game could be replayed automatically. The tournament director could then decide after the fact which game is the official game. This would minimize delays in the tournament schedule.
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Janzert
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #66 on: Oct 17th, 2009, 10:46am » |
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I agree, games should just be restarted from the beginning when a problem is detected. Although I think if the game is in progress it should be stopped if there is a reason already listed in the rules as disqualifying the game. If it's possible preferably it could be stopped in a way that would cause the result to be "abandoned", along with unrating it.
Janzert
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omar
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #67 on: Oct 18th, 2009, 7:39am » |
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Yes, restarting would be easier than restoring. But I am willing to go either way.
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RonWeasley
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #68 on: Oct 19th, 2009, 4:36am » |
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on Oct 18th, 2009, 7:39am, omar wrote:Yes, restarting would be easier than restoring. But I am willing to go either way.
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While I still have a preference for resuming, especially for bots, the arguments against it involving extra time on the adjourned position are reasonable and complex. And I recognize that always requiring a restart is fair in the sense that all players are treated equally, even though one might be very unlucky . Such a rule makes things much easier for tournament administration, so I yield to the more practical solution.
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aaaa
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #69 on: Oct 24th, 2009, 11:43am » |
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The rules say unrated games count for the purpose of qualifying, but this would allow a developer to take advantage of the fact that Gnobot2009Blitz and Clueless2009Blitz always set up their rabbits in front in those games.
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omar
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #70 on: Oct 24th, 2009, 5:12pm » |
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You are right; I guess the games against the benchmark bots can't be unrated during the qualifying phase. I changed the rules page now to read as:
Games against these bots during the qualifying period will be considered official qualifying games and must be rated games. Playing unrated games against these bots during the qualifying period would disqualify the qualifying bot.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #71 on: Oct 24th, 2009, 5:19pm » |
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on Oct 24th, 2009, 5:12pm, omar wrote:| Playing unrated games against these bots during the qualifying period would disqualify the qualifying bot. |
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That's a bit harsh for something that could be an accident. How about -1 point in the qualifying score for each unrated game played against a benchmark bot? Plus, of course, any unrated games don't count in the win streaks.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 24th, 2009, 5:19pm by Fritzlein » |
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omar
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #72 on: Oct 24th, 2009, 5:28pm » |
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Yes, I would hate to see a bot get disqualified due to an error by the developer in setting up the game. We are just trying to discourage intentional unrated games, so deducting a point from the score sounds like a good way to do that. Changed it to:
Games against these bots during the qualifying period will be considered official qualifying games and must be rated games. Playing unrated games against these bots during the qualifying period would deduct one point for each such game from the qualifying bots score and such games would not count in the win streak.
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aaaa
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #73 on: Oct 28th, 2009, 5:04pm » |
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Wouldn't it be better if the first tiebreaker only applied to all the qualifying games up to the last one that contributed to the primary score? Otherwise, there could be an incentive for one to stop early.
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jdb
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #74 on: Oct 31st, 2009, 3:15pm » |
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on Oct 24th, 2009, 5:28pm, omar wrote:Yes, I would hate to see a bot get disqualified due to an error by the developer in setting up the game. We are just trying to discourage intentional unrated games, so deducting a point from the score sounds like a good way to do that. Changed it to:
Games against these bots during the qualifying period will be considered official qualifying games and must be rated games. Playing unrated games against these bots during the qualifying period would deduct one point for each such game from the qualifying bots score and such games would not count in the win streak.
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This still seems a little harsh to me.
What is gained if the bot plays an unrated game against one of the ladder bots? Clearly, the game doesn't count in the score, so what is the benefit of playing the unrated game? I can easily setup bot_clueless_jr and play against them anyway. Its most likely just a developer mistake setting things up. I don't understand the need to penalize for a mistake.
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