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Topic: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open? (Read 13760 times) |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #90 on: Dec 20th, 2009, 9:32am » |
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It looks like the streak is not cut off at four. Clueless now has credit for a 5-game win streak against ArimaaScoreP1.
Why doesn't game 82990 give OpFor a 1-game winning streak against Loc2007P1? Similarly game 109862 should give marwin a one-game winning streak against OpFor2009Fast. I think perhaps you are ignoring the next game of the same color, even though a loss as Silver followed by a win as Silver ought to start a streak.
Thanks for getting this up and running. The continually-udpated standing are going to make for a very engaging race!
[edit]
This post would have said something original, but Tuks challenged me to a game in the middle of writing it, so jdb and Sconibulus beat me to it. 
[/edit]
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| « Last Edit: Dec 20th, 2009, 9:34am by Fritzlein » |
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aaaa
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #91 on: Dec 20th, 2009, 3:17pm » |
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I don't see why games with the wrong color assignment shouldn't simply be ignored, just like unrated ones.
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omar
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #92 on: Dec 21st, 2009, 6:48pm » |
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on Dec 20th, 2009, 8:46am, jdb wrote:| Clueless has a winning streak of 5 against bot_arimaascorep1. It should only count as 4 points towards the total score. |
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Oh yeah, forgot about the maximum of 4 points for streaks longer than 4. It is fixed now. Thanks for spotting that jdb.
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omar
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #93 on: Dec 21st, 2009, 7:07pm » |
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on Dec 20th, 2009, 9:31am, Sconibulus wrote:Omar, as I read it, clueless should still have a streak of 3 due to this segment.
s W 1233955791 96400
g W 1234270647 96839
s W 1234899619 97612
I think the reason that it doesn't is that when a streak is broken due to colour-fault, it doesn't count that game as a start of a new streak. Basically it seems to count that win as a loss, rather than a streak-breaking win. |
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I added a star now in front of games that count so we can more easily see which games counted and which didn't due to the alternating color requirement.
Code:
bot_Bomb2005Fast
* s L 1203799256 71259
s W 1233711016 96104
s L 1233749824 96136
s W 1233775674 96157
* g W 1233784044 96164
g W 1233787675 96169
* s W 1233795579 96188
s W 1233955791 96400
* g W 1234270647 96839
* s W 1234899619 97612
s L 1235056316 97833
* g W 1235063963 97840
* s W 1235068572 97846
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From this you can see that game 96400 didn't count because after 96188 which was played as silver we are expecting the next game to be played as gold, but 96400 was played as silver.
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omar
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #94 on: Dec 21st, 2009, 7:20pm » |
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on Dec 20th, 2009, 9:32am, Fritzlein wrote:
Why doesn't game 82990 give OpFor a 1-game winning streak against Loc2007P1? Similarly game 109862 should give marwin a one-game winning streak against OpFor2009Fast. I think perhaps you are ignoring the next game of the same color, even though a loss as Silver followed by a win as Silver ought to start a streak.
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But after losing as Silver isn't the qualifying bot expected to play the next game as Gold. Or is there a rule that breaking a streak also breaks the alternating color requirement such that the first win of a streak set the initial color.
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omar
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #95 on: Dec 21st, 2009, 7:28pm » |
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on Dec 20th, 2009, 3:17pm, aaaa wrote:| I don't see why games with the wrong color assignment shouldn't simply be ignored, just like unrated ones. |
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That is, they don't break a streak nor do they count as pre-streak losses. This could easily be done, but would it cause any problems or create loop holes. Off hand I don't see any problems since we are allowing unrated games to be ignored. Does anyone have an objection to ignoring rated games played with the wrong color?
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| « Last Edit: Dec 21st, 2009, 7:32pm by omar » |
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Janzert
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #96 on: Dec 21st, 2009, 7:35pm » |
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on Dec 21st, 2009, 7:20pm, omar wrote:| ...the first win of a streak set the initial color. |
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This is the way I expected it to work.
aaaa wrote:
Quote:| I don't see why games with the wrong color assignment shouldn't simply be ignored, just like unrated ones. |
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+1
Janzert
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Fritzlein
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #97 on: Dec 21st, 2009, 9:09pm » |
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Janzert, I think you just agreed with two contradictory things. If games of the wrong color are ignored, then some wins will be ignored, including potentially the first (color-setting) win of a streak.
Ignoring games of the wrong color is simplest, but to me it is unintuitive that a losing streak is not broken by a win of the wrong color and a winning streak is not broken by a loss of the wrong color. If we decide for the simpler (unintuitive) way, then the explanation in the rules had better be very, very clear.
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Janzert
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #98 on: Dec 21st, 2009, 10:45pm » |
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Hmm, I must be missing something. I admit I wasn't paying full attention while the qualifying method was being discussed and developed. After reading the rules a few days ago here in my own words is the mental model I had for how it worked.
With the start of the qualifying period, for each benchmark bot a qualifying bot is in one of two states: In a winning streak, out of winning streak. Each bot pair starts of course in the latter state. The state is updated once after each rated game between a pair.
While in the "out of winning streak" state the bot stays in the current state until it has a win, it then enters the "in winning streak" state with a streak length of 1.
While in the "in winning streak" state; if the bot has a game against the opposing bot with the same color as the previous game or the bot loses a game the state is reset to "out of winning streak" and the current streak length becomes the permanent length for this streak, else if the bot wins a game the current streak length is incremented.
In agreeing with aaaa I meant to change the "in winning streak" state to "if the bot has a game against the opposing bot with the same color as the previous game the game is ignored, else if the bot loses...". I never expected losses prior to the first win of a streak to count for anything.
Hopefully that makes it a little clearer on what my mental model of the process was/is.
Janzert
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| « Last Edit: Dec 21st, 2009, 10:46pm by Janzert » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #99 on: Dec 22nd, 2009, 5:38am » |
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Janzert, what you imagined is close to what I imagined, but apparently far from what omar and aaaa thought. (And I'm not positive they agreed exactly with each other...) I thought that if you are in a winning streak a loss stops it (regardless of color) and if you are in a losing streak a win stops it (regardless of color). I probably said that games with the wrong color don't count, but what I meant was that within a winning streak a win with the wrong color is neutral (neither ending nor extending the streak), while losses with the wrong color always count, either to break a winning streak or to lower your tiebreak score in a losing streak.
All of this is not to argue for doing it my way. If bots faithfully alternate colors, all of our ways of counting are equivalent, so it barely matters what the penalty for violating the alternation is. What does matter is being super clear about whatever we decide on, so as to avoid misunderstandings. We thought we were pretty much in agreement until the implementation exposed sharp differences in our intuitions about how things should work. Two other things to be absolutely clear about: do games with the wrong color count toward the limit of 20 against each bot? and do unrated games count toward the limit? Of course if we are ignoring unrated games it is essential that games with begin as rated can't become unrated after a timeout: unrating must apply only to human games.
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jdb
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #100 on: Dec 22nd, 2009, 7:43am » |
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Code:
...
bot_clueless
...
bot_Bomb2005Fast
A s L 1203799256 71259
B s W 1233711016 96104
C s L 1233749824 96136
D s W 1233775674 96157
E g W 1233784044 96164
F g W 1233787675 96169
G s W 1233795579 96188
H s W 1233955791 96400
I g W 1234270647 96839
J s W 1234899619 97612
K s L 1235056316 97833
L g W 1235063963 97840
M s W 1235068572 97846
streak is 2, loses is 2, total score is 2, total loses is 2, ...
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I had no idea how much of a difference interpretation could make on the length of the streak!
For the above example,
Rule 1) The streak can start on any colour, at any time, and non alternating games are ALWAYS ignored.
Best Streak: BEGIJLM
Length: 7
Rule 2) The streak can start on any colour, at any time, and non alternating games ALWAYS break the streak.
Best Streak: HIJ
Length: 3
Rule 3) The streak can start on any colour, at any time, and non alternating LOSSES break the streak, non alternating wins are ignored
Best Streak: DEGIJ
Length: 5
Rule 4) The first game played (ie win or lose) sets the colour, each non alternating game after that is ignored. The streak can start on either colour.
Counting Games: AEGIJLM
Best Streak: EGIJLM
Length: 6
I think rule 4 would work well. It forces the 20 games to be split by colour evenly. There is no penalty for accidently playing a non alternating game. It is crystal clear which 20 games count, so no loop holes.
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| « Last Edit: Dec 22nd, 2009, 8:05am by jdb » |
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omar
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #101 on: Dec 22nd, 2009, 3:29pm » |
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I also like rule 4 because it enforces an equal number of games with both colors. If a non-alternating game occurs, it would be due to a mistake in setting up the game by the bot developer; so it makes sense to not have those games penalize the bot in any way. I don't see any way in which the bot develop could intentionally use such games to gain an advantage.
I changed it now to completely ignore games that occurred with a non-alternating color. Such games do not, break the streak, increase the pre-streak losses or count against the 20 game limit.
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/wcc/2010/qual.htm
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Fritzlein
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #102 on: Jan 3rd, 2010, 11:20am » |
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I'm glad that stable of benchmark bots is not so weak that there will be no discrimination between the top qualifying bots: marwin has already lost a game to Bomb2005Fast.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?
« Reply #103 on: Jan 7th, 2010, 9:01am » |
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Earlier I saw that bot_bomb had registered, but later the name changed to bot_Bomb2005CC. I take this to mean that Omar is putting bomb through qualifying on Fotland's behalf.
We discussed earlier in this thread whether bomb should be given an automatic entry or not. Now I see both that "automatic entry" is ambiguous and that Omar never gave his opinion on that point.
In some sense bomb is getting an automatic entry, because Omar is doing work on Fotland's behalf that other developers don't have to do. I don't like the possiblity that there is an actively-developed bot getting squeezed out. I would prefer the eighth spot in the tournament to go to Rat or akimot because their respective developers have put in time in the past year, even if bomb is stronger than both Rat and akimot. I truly hope that neither developer was deterred from entering by the thought that the field was too tough. I hope that neither was going to take up the eighth space in bomb's absence.
On the other hand, if there truly were only going to be seven entrants without bomb, then I don't mind the preferential treatment. It will make the tournament smoother and more interesting to have a full complement of eight bots. Furthermore, bomb still has to meet the same qualifying requirements as other bots, and therefore should be seeded appropriately.
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BlackKnight
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Re: Will the 2010 Computer Championship be open?Or
« Reply #104 on: Jan 8th, 2010, 5:44pm » |
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on Jan 7th, 2010, 9:01am, Fritzlein wrote:I would prefer the eighth spot in the tournament to go to Rat or akimot because their respective developers have put in time in the past year, even if bomb is stronger than both Rat and akimot. I truly hope that neither developer was deterred from entering by the thought that the field was too tough. I hope that neither was going to take up the eighth space in bomb's absence.
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Originally, I thought I could enter Rat again, but first of all I was too busy in the end of last term to implement the changes in Rat that are necessary to actually improve the bot. Furthermore, I have an even much busier schedule this term, but I will introduce Arimaa to two of my classes as we go along.
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