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Topic: 2011 Arimaa Puzzle Contest (Read 4212 times) |
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omar
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Re: 2011 Arimaa Puzzle Contest
« Reply #15 on: Mar 25th, 2011, 10:23am » |
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on Mar 24th, 2011, 2:14am, 722caasi wrote:
Nice puzzle.
This raises the question of how we will determine which category a puzzle belongs to (Beginner, Intermediate or Advanced). Will the category of the puzzle be assigned by the judges or does the person submitting the puzzle decide? Jeff, maybe this needs to be mentioned in the rules. Bot developers, is there any way to have a bot look at the position and give some kind of score on how difficult it is to find the winning move?
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| « Last Edit: Mar 25th, 2011, 10:25am by omar » |
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arimaasen
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Re: 2011 Arimaa Puzzle Contest
« Reply #16 on: Mar 25th, 2011, 11:31am » |
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on Mar 25th, 2011, 10:23am, omar wrote:
This raises the question of how we will determine which category a puzzle belongs to (Beginner, Intermediate or Advanced). Will the category of the puzzle be assigned by the judges or does the person submitting the puzzle decide? Jeff, maybe this needs to be mentioned in the rules. Bot developers, is there any way to have a bot look at the position and give some kind of score on how difficult it is to find the winning move?
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Rule 9 states that "All puzzles must be labeled..." so my intention was that submitters should give the level. (Note, too, that "Appropriateness to chosen level" is worth 5 points in the judging.) I gave rough definitions for the levels in the rule. I can clarify that, and, of course, it can be a required field when submitting the problem. 
(I notice now that I forgot to require that submissions clearly state whose turn it is to move. I'll add that, too.)
FWIW, Puzzle 58 struck me as a beginner problem, mostly because I still consider myself a beginner and solved it within about 15 seconds. "Move and win" was an excellent objective and gave me the hint that it might not be by goal.
Puzzle 24 I would call advanced because it adds the difficulty of determining who will win and uses a very subtle point of the rules.
By the rules as clarified earlier, both would be eligible for submission by their authors, but may lose some surprise because they are known and not anonymous to the judges at this point.
I would not like to rely on bots to determine difficulty, as this pertains more to human perception. Part of the point of this puzzle challenge is to help us collectively understand how *people* learn the game and how we can help them improve their knowledge through guided practice. Problem levels may seem hard to gauge now, but I'm hoping we'll get a better feel for it by going through this exercise. That will aid the creation of the next generation of educational books that can better reach people unfamiliar with the game.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2011 Arimaa Puzzle Contest
« Reply #17 on: Mar 30th, 2011, 3:19pm » |
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on Mar 24th, 2011, 7:02pm, 722caasi wrote:Here's a fun puzzle:
The position is just before gold's first move, and the question is "How many moves are necessary to recreate the position?" |
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There is a large literature of chess puzzles, many quite entertaining, that have nothing to do with learning how to play chess well. They are merely logic puzzles which require knowledge of the rules of chess. For example, you might be given a position in which one piece has been knocked off the board, and be asked to deduce the color and rank of that piece. As much as I might enjoy the logic process involved, it has little to do with playing chess per se.
Jeff, could you be explicit about whether you are interested in such puzzles? They can be clear, sound, targeted to a particular level, demonstrate the rules of the game, and be very entertaining, yet I suspect you would still reject them. If so, I urge you to add a condition that puzzles are intended to increase the winning rate of players who take the time to solve them, or some similarly-worded condition. Or if you intent is to encourage logic puzzles of any type on an Arimaa board, say that explicitly instead.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 30th, 2011, 3:21pm by Fritzlein » |
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arimaasen
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Re: 2011 Arimaa Puzzle Contest
« Reply #18 on: Mar 30th, 2011, 5:36pm » |
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on Mar 30th, 2011, 3:19pm, Fritzlein wrote:
Jeff, could you be explicit about whether you are interested in such puzzles? They can be clear, sound, targeted to a particular level, demonstrate the rules of the game, and be very entertaining, yet I suspect you would still reject them. |
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I'll look at how to make it clearer, but I would very much encourage all those kinds of puzzles. This is why the purpose statement says "problems for study and entertainment" and the judging category is for "educational or entertainment value". Under "What makes a good puzzle?" I say it should be "educational and/or entertaining". So I tried to show as often as possible that one or the other is important (e.g., a grinding goal in 40 puzzle that only a computer could love isn't really what I'm after) and purely entertaining puzzles are most welcome.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2011 Arimaa Puzzle Contest
« Reply #19 on: Mar 30th, 2011, 10:10pm » |
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on Mar 30th, 2011, 5:36pm, arimaasen wrote:
I'll look at how to make it clearer [...] |
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How about just an example of a puzzle with an objective other than "find a move that does X"?
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arimaasen
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Re: 2011 Arimaa Puzzle Contest
« Reply #20 on: Mar 30th, 2011, 10:39pm » |
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on Mar 30th, 2011, 10:10pm, Fritzlein wrote:
How about just an example of a puzzle with an objective other than "find a move that does X"? |
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Great idea. I can make one up, but is there already an example? I know of the Sherlock Holmes "what piece was removed and whose turn is it" for chess, but does anything like that exist yet for Arimaa?
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2011 Arimaa Puzzle Contest
« Reply #21 on: Mar 31st, 2011, 12:50am » |
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on Mar 30th, 2011, 10:39pm, arimaasen wrote:| Great idea. I can make one up, but is there already an example? I know of the Sherlock Holmes "what piece was removed and whose turn is it" for chess, but does anything like that exist yet for Arimaa? |
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I don't think any such thing exists for Arimaa. Here's a quick attempt from me:
+--------+
+11101110+
+11111121+
+11001111+
+22111211+
+22000011+
+11011011+
+11122111+
+00001111+
+--------+
The above board corresponds to a position (of course reachable by legal moves under the rules of Arimaa) in which no piece of higher rank than a cat remains. Gold is to move. The number in each square indicates the number of different gold pieces that could end Gold's turn on that square. (Different pieces of the same rank count as different.) Reconstruct the position. (I think the answer is unique, but go ahead and post if you have a solution, in case it is not the one I intended.)
There's nothing special going on there, but I'm sure puzzles of this type could get very intricate. I expect that I would enjoy solving a clever one.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 31st, 2011, 12:55am by Fritzlein » |
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Eltripas
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Re: 2011 Arimaa Puzzle Contest
« Reply #22 on: Mar 31st, 2011, 10:37am » |
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on Mar 31st, 2011, 12:50am, Fritzlein wrote:
I don't think any such thing exists for Arimaa. Here's a quick attempt from me:
+--------+
+11101110+
+11111121+
+11001111+
+22111211+
+22000011+
+11011011+
+11122111+
+00001111+
+--------+
The above board corresponds to a position (of course reachable by legal moves under the rules of Arimaa) in which no piece of higher rank than a cat remains. Gold is to move. The number in each square indicates the number of different gold pieces that could end Gold's turn on that square. (Different pieces of the same rank count as different.) Reconstruct the position. (I think the answer is unique, but go ahead and post if you have a solution, in case it is not the one I intended.)
There's nothing special going on there, but I'm sure puzzles of this type could get very intricate. I expect that I would enjoy solving a clever one. |
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Pieces that are already in the squares count as pieces that could end Gold's turn on that square?
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2011 Arimaa Puzzle Contest
« Reply #23 on: Mar 31st, 2011, 10:40am » |
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on Mar 31st, 2011, 10:37am, Eltripas wrote:| Pieces that are already in the squares count as pieces that could end Gold's turn on that square? |
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Yes, so a frozen gold piece that can't move at all is a piece that can end Gold's turn on its square.
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arimaasen
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Re: 2011 Arimaa Puzzle Contest
« Reply #24 on: Mar 31st, 2011, 10:52am » |
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on Mar 31st, 2011, 12:50am, Fritzlein wrote:
...The number in each square indicates the number of different gold pieces that could end Gold's turn on that square. |
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Ok, this helps point out what needs to be clarified. I believe Omar has agreed to create entry pages that will let us gather entries with all the necessary information (and manage judging them, I hope). The page will be based on the existing puzzle library and will only accept board positions for standard pieces. So while a puzzle like the one you propose would be fine philosophically, I don't think we have an easy way of entering it. I'd rather not deal with general e-mail or other submissions that then have to be interpreted. Having one automated entry system will simplify things a lot.
That said, the "objective" section will just be free-form text, so if someone wants to enter it just as you did here, I don't have any problem with it.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2011 Arimaa Puzzle Contest
« Reply #25 on: Mar 31st, 2011, 11:06am » |
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on Mar 31st, 2011, 10:52am, arimaasen wrote:| I believe Omar has agreed to create entry pages that will let us gather entries with all the necessary information (and manage judging them, I hope). |
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If entries are to be submitted and managed through Omar's puzzle tool, then I believe you are indeed limited to exactly puzzles of the type "find a move that does X". The only solution that the puzzle tool can accept is a move list. So while there is still freedom as to what X is, the solution must be the one and only move that does X.
Quote:| I'd rather not deal with general e-mail or other submissions that then have to be interpreted. |
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I can imagine that there are creative ways of using the puzzle tool beyond what it was designed for. However, if you don't want to deal with e-mail and submissions that have to be interpreted, you probably also don't want to deal with pushing the limits of the puzzle tool by submitting puzzles it wasn't designed to handle, correct?
For example I think you will have to change your invitation to use fantasy pieces, since there is no provision in the puzzle tool for displaying fantasy pieces on the board. Yes, one could submit an ordinary-looking position along with instructions saying that rabbits are actually rats and that cats gain a special "exploding step" for the purposes of the puzzle, but that would just create interpretation problems, right?
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| « Last Edit: Mar 31st, 2011, 11:15am by Fritzlein » |
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