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   Author  Topic: Endless Endgame Event?  (Read 50799 times)
clyring
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Re: Endless Endgame Event?
« Reply #30 on: Jul 17th, 2012, 9:06pm »
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on Jul 17th, 2012, 12:48pm, supersamu wrote:
I have a proposal: Silver should start with two moves; Then gold does 4 moves.
After this the game progresses as usual. This would minimize the starting advantage of gold.
I've already made a similar rule for this event, except with gold moving first with only two steps. See the first post in this thread.
on May 12th, 2012, 8:59am, clyring wrote:

-Balance. Simply limiting gold's first move to two steps will probably work well enough. If gold violates this, automatic forfeit.
Why have gold move first instead of silver? The first reason is tradition, as Fritzlein mentioned, and the second is a practical matter. The client will have gold begin the setup process anyway, so requiring silver to make the first move requires gold not only to setup their pieces, but intentionally take one move longer than needed to do so.
on Jul 17th, 2012, 12:48pm, supersamu wrote:

Since we cannot start a game at this point, we would have a bit of time in reserve as soon as we start the game from this point on. Is this intended?
It's not exactly intended, but it is why there is no initial reserve in the time control being used. You'll already get plenty enough from actually setting the pieces up.
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supersamu
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Re: Endless Endgame Event?
« Reply #31 on: Jul 20th, 2012, 9:57am »
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I donīt know if this is the right place to post this, but i have a proposal:
I think there is a way to setup and play a position against a bot without making changes to the client.
It could work this way:
The player chats the moves that he wants the bot to play.
Of course the player has to chat the moves before the bot would make a move, and the games should be unrated.
I donīt know about bots, but this could be easy to implement.
 
@ rbarreira:
If your bot is ready playing the game using the starting position from the Endless Endgame Event, could you please post the results here?
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rbarreira
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Re: Endless Endgame Event?
« Reply #32 on: Jul 20th, 2012, 10:06am »
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on Jul 20th, 2012, 9:57am, supersamu wrote:

@ rbarreira:
If your bot is ready playing the game using the starting position from the Endless Endgame Event, could you please post the results here?

 
It's not done yet, but I'll paste the moves here and update it once in a while. 5g was not a great move of course (but I guess it compensates giving it 4 steps for the first move)... You can paste the moves in the game planner
 
 
EDIT - it's over now. This was at 1 hour per turn:
 
1g Cb1 Rc1 Re1 Rf1 Rg1 Rh1 Ec2 Rf2 Ch2
1s ec7 rf7 ch7 cb8 rc8 re8 rf8 rg8 rh8
2g Ec2w Eb2n Eb3n Eb4n
2s ec7w ch7w eb7s cg7s
3g Eb5w Ea5n Ea6n Ea7e
3s eb6s eb5s eb4s eb3s
4g Eb7e cb8s Rf2w Re2n
4s re8w rc8w rf8w cb7w
5g Ec7w Eb7e ca7e Re3n
5s rb8w ra8s ra7s ra6s
6g Cb1w Re1w Re4w Ca1n
6s cg6w cf6w ra5e rb5s
7g Rd4w Rc1w Rd1w Rc1n
7s Rc2s eb2e rb4s rb3e
8g Rf1w Re1n Re2n Re3w
8s rd8w ce6s ce5s ce4s
9g Ch2w Rc4e Rd4n Rd5n
9s re8w rf7w Rd3n ce3w
10g Ca2e Cg2w Cf2w Ce2w
10s cd3e rc3e Cd2s ec2e
11g Cd1e Rd6e Ec7e Rc1e
11s rd8e rc8e ed2w rd3s
12g Rd4w Ce1n Rb1e Rc4n
12s Cb2n ec2w ce3w cb7e
13g Ce2s rd2e re2n Ce1n
13s cd3n cd4n Rc5n Rc6x cd5w
14g re3e rf3x Ce2n Rc1n Ce3n
14s Cb3e eb2n cc5e cd5n
15g cd6s Ed7s Cc3e Ce4n
15s re8e rd8w cc7e rc8s
16g cd7n Ed6n Ce5e Re6e
16s cd5e rf8s eb3n ce5n
17g rc7s rc6x Ed7w Rf6e Cf5n
17s re7w ce6n rf7e ce7e
18g rd7e Ec7e re7s Ed7e
18s rg8w rg7e cf7e rf8w
19g Cf6s re6e rf6x Ee7e re8s
19s Rg6e cg7s Rh6s cg6e
20g Ef7s re7e Ef6e rf7s rf6x
20s Rh5s ch6s eb4e ec4e
21g Rd1n Cd3w Cf5n Cc3w
21s ed4n ed5e ee5n ee6n
22g Cf6s Eg6w Ef6w Cf5e
22s cd8w cc8w ee7w ed7s
23g Cg5n Rc2n Rd2n Rc3n
23s cb8s cb7s ed6s
24g Ee6w Rc4n Cg6s Cg5w
24s ed5e Rc5e ee5n Rd5e
25g Re5w Rd5w Rc5n Rc6n
25s ee6n ee7w Rc7s ed7w
26g Rd3e Re3n Re4n Re5n
26s ec7e Rc6n cb6e cc6x rh7w
27g Cb3w Ed6w Rh1n Rc7n Ec6x
« Last Edit: Jul 22nd, 2012, 1:38pm by rbarreira » IP Logged
chessandgo
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Re: Endless Endgame Event?
« Reply #33 on: Jul 21st, 2012, 4:45am »
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Clyring, is is still possible to register to this event?
 
@Ricardo: there's some serious defense going on there Smiley It'd be cool if briareus could participate. You know, to settle for good and all... who holds sway, over the arimaa engame.  
 
Hmmm, now I realize that when I have to google for ten minutes before finding out the quote, and then point out that it's from Gangs of NY, then it certainly doesn't count Smiley
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clyring
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Re: Endless Endgame Event?
« Reply #34 on: Jul 21st, 2012, 6:56am »
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chessandgo: Registration is always open until further notice.
 
As for bots participating, that would be nice, but keep in mind that the bot will need to handle the custom setups and be able to play only two steps on the first turn as gold. I also want to avoid having too many bots on the list...
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chessandgo
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Re: Endless Endgame Event?
« Reply #35 on: Jul 21st, 2012, 9:38am »
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alright, so I register Smiley When's the next game?
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odin73
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Re: Endless Endgame Event?
« Reply #36 on: Jul 21st, 2012, 12:04pm »
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I also would like to play. Smiley
 
It will be always the suggested starting configuration (eccrrrrrr)?  
 
We could introduce a round of 2 games between two players meaning that each player can start for one time as gold, i.e. the beginnig player?  
Which player is at first at gold side could be defined by throwing a coin.
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clyring
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Re: Endless Endgame Event?
« Reply #37 on: Jul 21st, 2012, 3:26pm »
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-I'll run the pairings at roughly the same time each week.
-I intended for there to be a different setup for each game, but now that I think about it more, it might be better if every game in a given week has the same setup.
-2 games per match with reversed colors seems like too much for me. At 2 mins/move, the scheduling issues might be too much then.
 
-About the setups: From experience, positions with a shortage of rabbits tend to behave very differently from positions with an abundance of rabbits, so I've decided to remove the option for setups with 4 or fewer rabbits.
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chessandgo
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Re: Endless Endgame Event?
« Reply #38 on: Jul 22nd, 2012, 4:15am »
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on Jul 21st, 2012, 3:26pm, clyring wrote:
-About the setups: From experience, positions with a shortage of rabbits tend to behave very differently from positions with an abundance of rabbits, so I've decided to remove the option for setups with 4 or fewer rabbits.

 
Oh. Are you sure you don't want to remove setups with too many pieces (for example >10) [edit : pieces meaning "with rabbits included") instead? If I understand correctly with a little bit of unluck we could get an almost full board, especially with R>4 enforced. It seems to me that few rabbits make very interesting positions as well.
« Last Edit: Jul 22nd, 2012, 4:19am by chessandgo » IP Logged

clyring
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Re: Endless Endgame Event?
« Reply #39 on: Jul 22nd, 2012, 8:13am »
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Interesting, but a different kind of interesting. Pieces < 10 still isn't enough to ensure 'endgame-like' positions with goal attacks being the main idea. For example, this position has only 9 pieces per side but hardly seems to play like a 'typical' endgame.

(See also game 230006.)
 
On the other hand, if the primary goal of this event is to accelerate the development of endgame theory, is knowing when you have enough rabbits in reserve to launch a useful goal attack not a part of endgame theory? Setting an upper bound on the number of pieces seems useful either way, but I might prefer 12 instead of 10. (It seems arbitrary where to draw the line...)
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odin73
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Re: Endless Endgame Event?
« Reply #40 on: Jul 22nd, 2012, 1:32pm »
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I find this position is too constructed. It will never occur in reality.
 
Beside ERR/err there is only six pieces on each side. When you scatter these pieces as well as the remaining rabbits around all four traps it could again have a strong endgame character depending on the position of the rabbits and the balance of each trap control (consider as well elephant on 6th line beside a trap and a rabbit already on 7th line).
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odin73
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Re: Endless Endgame Event?
« Reply #41 on: Jul 22nd, 2012, 1:56pm »
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Just take this starting position:
 
1w Rb6 Rc2 Cc5 Cg4 Df1 De8 He5 Hf7 Eb2
1b rb3 rc7 cc4 cg5 df8 de1 he4 hf2 eb7
 
When Gold has only 2 steps I donīt find it trivial.
 
By the way: How can I post an image of a position directly?
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clyring
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Re: Endless Endgame Event?
« Reply #42 on: Jul 22nd, 2012, 2:33pm »
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What, did you expect a randomly generated position to be particularly realistic? (Placing the pieces on more natural squares is no particularly difficult task...) That the position can become highly tactical in the future is almost useless given that this is true of nearly any position.
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odin73
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Re: Endless Endgame Event?
« Reply #43 on: Jul 23rd, 2012, 4:30am »
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Maybe the main lack of a constructed position is that it is contructed..
 
All real positions have its history meaning that one can find a certain structure due to the previous game. But in most cases "one can see" that it is a real position.
 
An advantage of placing all pieces in the first two ranks (as you proposed) is that the game can develop quickly within a few moves to a more realistic endgame position. For this reason I would play any time with your proposed starting position.
 
It might be interesting to randomize the position of all pieces of the initial setup limited to the first or at most first two lines (if we intend to establish a more flexible solution for exercising endgame positions)?
In this case we could scatter arbitrary piece combinations from ERRerr to ERRRRRRRerrrrrrrr or EHHDDCCRRehhddccrr and so on.
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chessandgo
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Re: Endless Endgame Event?
« Reply #44 on: Jul 23rd, 2012, 7:14am »
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I think the "non-endgame" feeling that you might have in the above position comes from the too numerous (non-rabbit)pieces, not the lack of rabbits. How about a rule like "at most 5 o(r w/e) non-rabbit pieces" if you want to rule this type of endgame out?  
 
Although I think it's a perfectly valid type of endgame. Could happen when players both manage to stop the opponent's goal attack and start capturing rabbits in turns. I seem to recall an Adanac-robinson game from the 2006 WC where they finish with a tense endgame with one or two rabbits each?
« Last Edit: Jul 23rd, 2012, 7:38am by chessandgo » IP Logged

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