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lightvector
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #15 on: May 4th, 2015, 8:00pm »
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This sounds fun to me too. Smiley
 
I would be a bit concerned though about it losing the game right out of the opening though. With a week of people analyzing, I doubt sharp has any particular edge in tactics any more, while its strategic knowledge, particularly early-game, remains a weakness.  
 
We could try it anyways though. Thoughts?
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Samraku
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #16 on: May 4th, 2015, 8:49pm »
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Also, us humans have the advantage of being able to discern who we should listen too and who doesn't know what they're talking about. I fall in the latter category, just to clarify. Smiley
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Samraku
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #17 on: May 4th, 2015, 8:50pm »
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I believe it's to, not too. Dost thou wish to opine?
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deep_blue
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #18 on: May 5th, 2015, 4:49am »
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Browni of course has a point that the bot may not be ready to face the whole community. I wondered if we should have the Mob only consist of us "normal players" while the Challenge defenders aren't allowed. That might be fairer but the defenders might be disappointed that they may not participate.
I thought of a standard 1d/60d etc. game so that it would be finished till the next eventual Challenge (where the humans would try to strike back then Wink).
Something I thought was obvious but Browni in the chat mentioned it was not, is that my intent was not to allow bots in the Mob. I thought we (humanity) want to strike back vs. the AI so of course we don't have bots in our team.
 
Any opinions on that all?
« Last Edit: May 5th, 2015, 4:50am by deep_blue » IP Logged
mattj256
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #19 on: May 5th, 2015, 9:00am »
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on May 4th, 2015, 3:37pm, rbarreira wrote:
If hardware availability is a problem I have spare Core 2 Duo (dual-core) PC that I can donate to the cause. Not ultra-powerful, but hey. The only thing I would ask from the community would be some donations to help with the electricity costs Smiley
It might be more cost-effective to run the server in the cloud.  I use Amazon Web Services at work and I can help set that up if it would be useful.  (The OS options include Windows and Linux.)  It's like $10/month for a very low-end computer, and $167/month for c4.xlarge which is what we use for our production web servers.
 
Prices are here:
http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/pricing/
 
The prices are per hour, so multiply by 24 * 30 to get a monthly rate.
Prices are per hour, so you can shut the computer down when you're not using it to save money.  Alternatively, if you leave it running 24/7 you can use a different pricing plan where you pay more up front but the total cost is reduced by 20% or more.
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mattj256
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #20 on: May 5th, 2015, 9:01am »
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on May 5th, 2015, 4:49am, deep_blue wrote:
I thought we (humanity) want to strike back vs. the AI so of course we don't have bots in our team.
We could have a human team vs a bot team. Smiley
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deep_blue
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #21 on: May 5th, 2015, 9:15am »
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The problem is that then someone would need to coordinate the bot team.
Also Sharp is probably too much ahead to other bots.
« Last Edit: May 5th, 2015, 9:15am by deep_blue » IP Logged
mattj256
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #22 on: May 5th, 2015, 3:51pm »
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on May 5th, 2015, 9:15am, deep_blue wrote:
The problem is that then someone would need to coordinate the bot team.  Also Sharp is probably too much ahead to other bots.
Ok nevermind then.
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harvestsnow
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #23 on: May 8th, 2015, 12:32am »
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on May 5th, 2015, 4:49am, deep_blue wrote:
I wondered if we should have the Mob only consist of us "normal players" while the Challenge defenders aren't allowed.

I don't really get why you want to ban the defenders. All those who played this instance of sharp have lost at least once to it. There's nothing magical in having suffered it in an official challenge game. Or maybe you should also ban yourself, since you're one of the few who actually won once?
I'd rather have a stronger sharp than a weaker mob. A cyborg would be nice, but it requires a huge long-term commitment from one person.
 
 
Quote:
I thought of a standard 1d/60d etc. game so that it would be finished till the next eventual Challenge

That doesn't seem remotely possible. Even individual players time out at this speed. We need enough time for everyone to propose their favorite moves, argue about it, define a list of choices and finally vote. Even if we decided that one player (the king) has the final word on every move to speed things up, one day (or even two, planning on a 60 move game) would not be enough for an effective counseling.
 
I don't see a problem in the game lasting more than a year, as long as it stays interesting. Sharp keeping up with the mob at postal speed would be even more impressive than its challenge performance, and we're bound to get a great arimaa lesson. On the other hand, we should define conditions to end the game if it stops being interesting. The choice to resign could be added to the vote on the human side; if the bot's position is hopeless, an eval of -5000 (minus five initial rabbits) could be enough to decide that it lost. Maybe the decision should be validated by the mob (option "win now" in the vote). There's no point renting the server if the game is already decided.
« Last Edit: May 8th, 2015, 12:37am by harvestsnow » IP Logged
CraggyCornmeal
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #24 on: May 8th, 2015, 1:04am »
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I'd love to be involved in the Mob, too, though I doubt I'll be any help. Tongue
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Samraku
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #25 on: May 8th, 2015, 6:26am »
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on May 8th, 2015, 1:04am, CraggyCornmeal wrote:
I'd love to be involved in the Mob, too, though I doubt I'll be any help. Tongue

 
Join for the same reason I did; to have fun and or learn. Smiley
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browni3141
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #26 on: May 8th, 2015, 7:10pm »
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If there is interest, I would enjoy playing cyborg style on sharp's side. Access to good hardware would still be nice, though. I wouldn't want to run sharp on my computer. I also wouldn't want to personally pay server rental costs.
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CraggyCornmeal
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #27 on: May 8th, 2015, 11:37pm »
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How much does Sharp's performance suffer if it runs on not-top-of-the-line hardware? Would it play measurably worse, or would it simply need a few extra minutes to find the best move? I'm asking this in case we can save a bit on server costs.
 
on May 8th, 2015, 6:26am, Samraku wrote:
Join for the same reason I did; to have fun and or learn. Smiley

I completely agree. Smiley
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deep_blue
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #28 on: May 9th, 2015, 3:03am »
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I have no experience with one vs. many matches but if harvestsnow says the time is too short he's probably right.
And yes, sharp would suffer on slower hardware. I don't know how good sharp's parallelisation is but 12 cores vs. 1 core should be around 10 times faster for 12 cores. So you'd need 10 times as much time to find the same move.
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lightvector
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #29 on: May 9th, 2015, 9:05pm »
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If people are serious about wanting to run this, I will just rent a server from Amazon. The cost is reasonable, particularly if sharp doesn't think for a full week. For example, running on two cores thinking for 1 day / move costs about $200 for 80 moves which isn't crazy spread out over the course of a year or two. And two cores for 1 day / move is still more than 100 times more computation than CC.
 
My concern remains the same - I think there's a non-negligible chance that sharp will do something brain-dead in the opening or in some later position (ex: taking a bad frame and holding it for the next 20 moves while shuffling pieces), and it would be a shame to have this degree of investment in a game only for something like that to happen. Having one decent human player to assist in a cyborg fashion would likely help enormously if one could figure out a good interface.  
 
I'm curious how much browni thinks that having access to sharp will help him at these speeds.
 
As an alternative I'm also open to simply making sharp available for a few postal games (thinking 1-2 hours/move). Sharp did not register in the postal mixer, but we could nonetheless set up a few games.
 
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