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PerkofBR
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #30 on: May 10th, 2015, 12:01am »
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I think the browni - sharp duo would be to much for us to beat  Tongue
Usually the one vs mob is a tough fight between the top human and the rest of the world. That human empowered by the best bot, the one that won the challenge, would be nearly impossible to beat in my opinion.  
But what are your thoughts about you cyborging with sharp, lightvector?
You are a pretty strong arimaa player, and you are the one that understand sharp the most.
Maybe not a full cyborg play, if you dont have the time or willingness* needed, but just interventions when you see it get in a braindead situation like you said in your post.  
 
*:I dont know if it is the correct word, just didnt knew anyone better  Smiley
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deep_blue
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #31 on: May 10th, 2015, 7:08am »
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I think we could beat that cyborg but only if people like Fritzlein or Chessandgo would participate and invest not too few time.
I think Browni could just think strategically and let sharp check the tactics and such things.
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supersamu
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #32 on: May 10th, 2015, 10:30am »
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I think we would be the favourite against sharp-browni.
I agree that there is reason to worry that sharp might not put up a good fight if a position arises where sharp plays poorly.
To prevent that, sharp does not need assistance from a player of browni's strength, however.
The cyborg player would need a good interface to meaningfully interact with the bot.
Since browni would like to play on sharp's side, I support browni being the cyborg player.
If browni can prevent sharp from playing piece-shuffling moves and other oddities, I think sharp's strength would increase quite a lot in certain situations. In cases where sharp is naturally strong, browni's assistance won't help as much, but will still be significant. The question will be if we would still be playing against sharp or if browni will influence the decisions too much.  
I even imagine that browni might objectively weaken a bot move because he overlooks a tactic.
I would suggest that browni should not interfere in a purely tactical position, but the problem is how to judge that.
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deep_blue
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #33 on: May 10th, 2015, 2:10pm »
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Well, thats his problem.  Tongue
He might enter a move. A good non-shuffling move shouldn't lose much eval, a blunder will. Then let's get this starting. Smiley
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browni3141
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #34 on: May 10th, 2015, 3:24pm »
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As a cyborg I should be able to achieve greater play than the best suggestion of either me or sharp on each move. Playing as a cyborg is about a lot more than simply overriding the bot when you don't like its move.
 
I'm assuming I would be able to check any lines I wanted with sharp before sending a move, so a tactical blunder shouldn't happen unless it is beyond sharp's search depth to know and I don't catch it myself. Both are going to be rare occurrences.
 
In quiet strategic positions it's likely I would end up playing most of the moves without a lot of input from sharp, although I can still use sharp to suggest refutations to my riskier moves, suggest moves I might not otherwise think of quickly, etc.
 
In tactical positions brownisharp should also be stronger than either of us individually, since our primary skill sets are different. The ability of a human to direct a bot's search is very meaningful, allowing greater depths to be reached in promising lines the bot might not want to try on its own.
« Last Edit: May 10th, 2015, 3:30pm by browni3141 » IP Logged

supersamu
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #35 on: May 11th, 2015, 2:08am »
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That is true, but I was thinking that people wanted to play against sharp+strategical support, not browni + tactical support. A better version of sharp and not a better version of browni, in other words.
So you would only interfere when sharp is stuck in an awful position or clearly plays in a bad direction.
But that is only my take on things, I am happy to hear opinions of others.
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deep_blue
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #36 on: May 11th, 2015, 7:58am »
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I agree with supersamu. The idea (at least my idea) was to test if humans can still beat the bot. Then it would be cheating so to say if browni would play us just with tactical support.
EDIT: I also agree with the next post by chessandgo that it would make sense if lightvector was the cyborg player. Also I think that he should be allowed to use newer sharps which then wouldn't be a problem anyway.
« Last Edit: May 11th, 2015, 3:21pm by deep_blue » IP Logged
chessandgo
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #37 on: May 11th, 2015, 12:56pm »
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I'm intrigued by the idea to play versus browni+sharp, but like others I think it would be like playing against browni a lot more than playing against sharp. If the idea is to take on sharp, I suggest we let lightvector do the cyborging if he wants to. Bot+developer makes sense as a team in a way anyone else would not.
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chessandgo
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #38 on: May 11th, 2015, 12:58pm »
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something else to consider before we start the game: If lightvector releases another (stronger) version of sharp before the Mob game is over, do we want him to switch versions, or do we play Sharp_2015CC all the way?
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browni3141
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #39 on: May 11th, 2015, 4:42pm »
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on May 11th, 2015, 2:08am, supersamu wrote:
That is true, but I was thinking that people wanted to play against sharp+strategical support, not browni + tactical support. A better version of sharp and not a better version of browni, in other words.
So you would only interfere when sharp is stuck in an awful position or clearly plays in a bad direction.
But that is only my take on things, I am happy to hear opinions of others.

 
My point was supposed to be, partially, that I don't think it would be a better version of either of us, but more like a completely new player.
 
Responding to chessandgo, I think newer versions of sharp should be allowed to play. Humans get to improve, bots should be able to if they want to Smiley
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lightvector
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #40 on: May 29th, 2015, 10:51pm »
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If people were mostly waiting for me to offer to be the human player teaming up with sharp, I apologize for letting this thread drop. I think this still sounds fun.
 
If there is still interest, I am willing to be the human player teaming up with my bot. I have a fairly full plate with other projects and activities I have going on, but I could squeeze this in Smiley. If there are enough other people who still would like to participate, how about we get started in perhaps the next couple of weeks? Who would be willing to act as Mob coordinator and leading and organizing things on the Mob side? (perhaps beginning by gathering enough people together).
 
Also, if indeed I'm the one teaming up with my bot, I do not promise to necessarily put in a large amount of time myself - for much of the time it might just be sharp alone playing, with me acting only as a bare sanity-check. Nonetheless, I would still reserve the right to exercise control over my bot's moves and to modify my bot in any way that I wished during the game. And also to make use of any other resources, except for asking any other humans for help on anything specific and relevant to the current game or viewing the Mob discussion about the game. (Although if at some point I rented a supercomputer or did anything else that might have a large effect on things, I would disclose this).
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deep_blue
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #41 on: May 30th, 2015, 3:13am »
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Great! I think we can start this then.  Smiley
I don't know if I am the right kind of person for this but I can imagine being Mob coordinator. Do you from previous Mob games know what exactly I have to do for this (like, calling people together, building the analysis tree...) and how much work it is?
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Samraku
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #42 on: May 30th, 2015, 6:59am »
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on May 29th, 2015, 10:51pm, lightvector wrote:
If people were mostly waiting for me to offer to be the human player teaming up with sharp, I apologize for letting this thread drop. I think this still sounds fun.
 
If there is still interest, I am willing to be the human player teaming up with my bot. I have a fairly full plate with other projects and activities I have going on, but I could squeeze this in :). If there are enough other people who still would like to participate, how about we get started in perhaps the next couple of weeks? Who would be willing to act as Mob coordinator and leading and organizing things on the Mob side? (perhaps beginning by gathering enough people together).
 
Also, if indeed I'm the one teaming up with my bot, I do not promise to necessarily put in a large amount of time myself - for much of the time it might just be sharp alone playing, with me acting only as a bare sanity-check. Nonetheless, I would still reserve the right to exercise control over my bot's moves and to modify my bot in any way that I wished during the game. And also to make use of any other resources, except for asking any other humans for help on anything specific and relevant to the current game or viewing the Mob discussion about the game. (Although if at some point I rented a supercomputer or did anything else that might have a large effect on things, I would disclose this).

 
 
Sounds like fun to me. :)
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lightvector
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #43 on: May 31st, 2015, 7:44pm »
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I don't know everything that being mob coordinator involves, but from what I recall, I think it involved being the one to set up the thread for people to discuss each week, to decide each week when and how to run the vote by which members selected a move, and to make the move once decided. And although not an explicit duty, I might imagine it involved being generally somewhat active throughout to keep it alive.
 
Is it possible or worth opening an informal signup of some sort, or even to add an announcement in the gameroom, to see if there's enough interest?
 
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Samraku
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Re: Sharp vs. The Mob
« Reply #44 on: May 31st, 2015, 8:13pm »
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It sounds as if it doesn't actually require skill at Arimaa, but I'm afraid my track record on keeping up with online games would advise against I disagree
uming such a responsibility. Sad
 
on May 31st, 2015, 7:44pm, lightvector wrote:
I don't know everything that being mob coordinator involves, but from what I recall, I think it involved being the one to set up the thread for people to discuss each week, to decide each week when and how to run the vote by which members selected a move, and to make the move once decided. And although not an explicit duty, I might imagine it involved being generally somewhat active throughout to keep it alive.
 
Is it possible or worth opening an informal signup of some sort, or even to add an announcement in the gameroom, to see if there's enough interest?
 

« Last Edit: May 31st, 2015, 8:14pm by Samraku » IP Logged
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