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Topic: browni3141 vs. bot_briareus (Read 2435 times) |
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Fritzlein
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Re: browni3141 vs. bot_briareus
« Reply #1 on: Sep 13th, 2013, 10:06pm » |
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I think the winning move is quite cool. The threat of it forced briareus to sacrifice rabbits on moves 50s and 51s. Those guys who are endgame experts are probably unimpressed with any goal-in-one move, as if seeing goal-in-one should be completely automatic, but I remember when I was learning back in 2004 even the best players would get blindsided by goal-in-one from time to time, particularly if it involved the anti-positional move of an elephant into a trap.
I remember that the first time I saw a goal-forcing elephant sacrifice I was gobsmacked even though it was just a one-mover. I suppose, however, that the more one sees of anything, the less impressive it becomes. After seeing a handful of elephant sacrifices to force goal in one, I started hankering for an elephant sacrifice that forces goal in two. That's more impressive because you have to be very sure the opponent has no defense, or else you will lose the game. Elephant sacrifices for a delayed goal do occasionally happen, although I've never done it myself.
There have been only a tiny number of elephant sacrifices that were strong enough to win, but needed more than two moves to convert. If I remember correctly, PMertens once sacrificed his elephant for a goal in four or so, certainly too far out to calculate precisely, yet he was confident his attack was strong enough to give up his elephant for. Now that is a feat that even the jaded goal experts in the chatroom would tip their hats to.
I wonder if any of the old hands here could dig up a link to that famous PMertens elephant sacrifice...
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| « Last Edit: Sep 13th, 2013, 10:09pm by Fritzlein » |
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clyring
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Re: browni3141 vs. bot_briareus
« Reply #2 on: Sep 13th, 2013, 10:13pm » |
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The winning move is certainly not lame- of course the unique goal-in-one move should by all means be played there. My remark in the chatroom referred to the idea of giving it the title of an elephant sacrifice. I think most strong players do not give any attention to the fact that such a move loses the elephant during a game because the goal overrules everything else.
EDIT: Fritzlein is spot on above in saying that stronger players are unimpressed by such an 'automatic' move, but I do not consider a relative beginner in any way wrong to be impressed by such a move. At least my comments in the chatroom were wholly devoted to your use of the word 'sacrifice' to describe it.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 13th, 2013, 10:18pm by clyring » |
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dht
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Re: browni3141 vs. bot_briareus
« Reply #3 on: Sep 14th, 2013, 1:43am » |
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Makes sense, in a kinda staring up a very steep intimidating cliff with no decent handholds kinda way...  
on Sep 13th, 2013, 10:06pm, Fritzlein wrote:| I wonder if any of the old hands here could dig up a link to that famous PMertens elephant sacrifice... |
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Please, now this I have to see...
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rbarreira
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Re: browni3141 vs. bot_briareus
« Reply #5 on: Sep 14th, 2013, 4:02am » |
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on Sep 13th, 2013, 10:13pm, clyring wrote:| My remark in the chatroom referred to the idea of giving it the title of an elephant sacrifice. I think most strong players do not give any attention to the fact that such a move loses the elephant during a game because the goal overrules everything else. |
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I meant the same thing when I said this doesn't count as a sacrifice IMO. By the time the elephant was off the board, the game had already ended and no further moves had to be made.
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aaaa
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Re: browni3141 vs. bot_briareus
« Reply #6 on: Sep 14th, 2013, 6:50am » |
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From a contemporary point of view, PMertens's sacrifice in that game doesn't look that impressive; not only doesn't it particularly stand out as the best move in the position, after the "poisoned" elephant was taken, goal could actually have been forced in just 2 more moves (e.g. with 69g Hg6w Hf6w cf7s cf6x Rf5n).
In my opinion, a much better sacrifice took place in this game, as the move that gave up the elephant (47s), was a unique goal-in-3 (although, despite what was stated, declining the sacrifice with an equally long defense was possible in the form of 48g Db3s Cc2s Rd1e Cc1n).
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Fritzlein
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Re: browni3141 vs. bot_briareus
« Reply #7 on: Sep 14th, 2013, 11:09am » |
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I see what you mean, aaaa, that it takes some of the shine off PMertens's elephant sacrifice that it wasn't necessarily the best move in the position, and the opponent wasn't forced to accept. On the other hand, PMertens was playing in a live game, a fast game no less, and the sheer fact that he let his elephant be taken without calculating it out to a forced win still blows my mind all these years later. RonWeasley, in contrast, was playing a postal game where he had the time to calculate very precisely that his move would force a win, and therefore he wasn't taking a risk based on gut intuition.
Given the positions only and not the respective circumstances, I agree that RonWeasley's elephant sacrifice was more impressive, but taking the time control into consideration, I give the nod to PMertens.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 14th, 2013, 11:11am by Fritzlein » |
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browni3141
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Re: browni3141 vs. bot_briareus
« Reply #8 on: Sep 16th, 2013, 12:08am » |
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The reason I don't pay much attention to such a sacrifice is that the winning move is the least interesting one of the game for me. Why focus on this when there is much more beauty and complexity to discover in previous portions of the game?
Take 46g for example. If I had to pick a single best step of the game it would be Hb8w! This move is fairly unintuitive at first glance. Why on earth would you move your horse into the corner like that? At least it was very difficult for me to find and finally decide on this move. After I found this single step and looked at continuations I was fairly convinced that I would win very shortly. Before finding it I could not find anything that looked like forced goal. I actually thought I had goal by 51g when I played my 46g. I had missed briareus' defense at 48s, but it was not too hard to find the winning 49g. Actually on 49g I also missed a defense that put off goal an additional move from what I expected at that point (rf8s.)
I am not sure any other 46g provides a quick goal, if goal in 8 can be called "quick." The horse is perfectly placed in the corner so that the silver camel can not manipulate it to block my own rabbit (46g dd6s Ec6e Ra4n Hb8s would be disastrous, do you see why? Some moves that involved leaving the horse where it was also look poor to me such as the move 46g dd6s Ec6e Ra4n Mc5n which I almost played) and so that it can follow up with the step south to provide a "bridge" for my attacking rabbit to goal. Also once it gets to a7 it will be ready for the Ha7e ra6n Ra5n maneuver which would be important in some lines.
There are also some beautiful goaling patterns in there that would be worth study if you're looking to improve goaling technique, IMO. The win after 47s re7w cd8w cc8w mc7n was somewhat hard to find even for me, and it was the breakthrough I needed to be able to play 46g with confidence.
There is more to look at than just the endgame also. The beginning of the game was very unique and interesting to me. How often do you see someone give up an entire dog for a horse frame? Of course in this case I knew that I could win the horse, so I guess it was more of a tactic than strategy. The material trade of rabbit and horse for two dogs is very rare and something I've never had before as far as I recall.
The last thing I will mention right now is time management. What you should take from this game with respect to time management is to always leave yourself with time to calculate through complex positions in a postal (and I guess in live games too) or you might end up like me on 45g and 46g. My reserve got a little to low for comfort there on 45g especially and I didn't have enough time for my move. I doubt with more time on 45g I would have changed my move, but I would have been able to make it with less perceived risk and I wouldn't have had to feel so rushed.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 16th, 2013, 12:09am by browni3141 » |
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