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Topic: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games (Read 522053 times) |
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1005 on: Nov 20th, 2012, 1:00pm » |
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Markus wrote:
Quote:| Wenn du aber darauf bestehst, dass ich das Spiel aus dem Wettbewerb lösche, dann werde ich das tun. Um keinen Anlass für weitere Diskussionen zu bieten, würde ich das dann damit begründen, dass das Spiel von 2010 ist, und somit zu alt um am Wettbewerb teilzunehmen. |
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Quote:| However, if you insist that I remove the game from the competition, then I will do so. To give no cause for further discussions, I will then give as the reason that the game is from 2010, and therefore too old to participate in the competition. |
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| « Last Edit: Nov 20th, 2012, 1:05pm by christianF » |
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1006 on: Nov 20th, 2012, 1:18pm » |
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Luis has posted an interesting line of reasoning towards the best penalty value for a given boardsize in Symple, at RGA.
We're not talking absolutes here, but it's a logical indicator, and deviation causes a difference in timing of the phase of maximum tension. In practice, increasing its value means a shift of tension towards the phase where connectivity of groups becomes more important than raw growth. That means that openings are usually somewhat higher. The bots at CodeCup all are base-15 and penalty 6, which according to Luis' criterion is optimal.
The mindsports applet allows penalties to be set from 0-12, boardsizes from base-11 to base 19. That covers all bases 
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| « Last Edit: Nov 20th, 2012, 1:25pm by christianF » |
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MarvinSpellbinder
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1007 on: Nov 20th, 2012, 1:24pm » |
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Markus wrote: "I would then explain the fact that the game is from 2010. Not "give as a reason", Christian.
The translation is clear. It's a fact, as Markus plainly admits, that Symple was published in 2010. The only thing new here is that Markus is as integrity challenged as you are for even temporarily allowing the clearly ineligible Symple.
Isn't it enough that you lie for yourself? Now you have to lie for Markus as well?
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1008 on: Nov 20th, 2012, 1:30pm » |
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on Nov 20th, 2012, 1:24pm, MarvinSpellbinder wrote:| The translation is clear. |
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I on the other hand do actually speak German. And mail in German unless otherwise agreed. But if it really is so important to you, yes, I tried to fool everybody  .
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MarvinSpellbinder
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1009 on: Nov 20th, 2012, 1:34pm » |
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The literal translation is irrelevant. Everyone knows that Symple was published in 2010. Who do you think you're fooling, Christian? Get some integrity.
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MarvinSpellbinder
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1010 on: Nov 20th, 2012, 2:03pm » |
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The only explanation for Symple's disqualification that Markus gave in public and in English was "[Symple] does not fit the criterias of this contest." Period. Nothing about smarmy, backroom dealings.
Basically Markus threw you under the bus, trying to disassociate himself from you and your ineligible game. But now that you revealed his email , you dragged him under the bus with you. Two bus squashings don't add up to integrity, Christian.
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MarvinSpellbinder
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1011 on: Nov 20th, 2012, 4:02pm » |
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on Nov 20th, 2012, 1:30pm, christianF wrote:
I tried to fool everybody .
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You really did try to fool everybody. No kissy face required. You've never publicly admitted to Symple's 2010 publish date. Not when you entered it, nor even now after you were caught.
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MarvinSpellbinder
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1012 on: Nov 20th, 2012, 6:20pm » |
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Reminds me of the rec.games.abstract contest that you tried to manipulate to your own advantage. There's a pattern here...
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1013 on: Nov 21st, 2012, 4:45am » |
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on Nov 20th, 2012, 4:02pm, MarvinSpellbinder wrote:
You really did try to fool everybody. No kissy face required. You've never publicly admitted to Symple's 2010 publish date. Not when you entered it, nor even now after you were caught. |
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Symple's invention
Symple at BGG
Symple at Sensei
Symple at Arimaa
As it happens, there is still some wreckage left (in terms of a game that's no longer there) in the comments of the BEST COMBINATORIAL 2-PLAYER GAME OF 2011/2012 AWARD.
After game #25, Luis' game "Quentin", there's a section with 104 comments. In it you'll find one of "Russ" (Posted Wed Nov 7, 2012 2:28 pm), followed by one by me (Posted Wed Nov 7, 2012 3:00 pm) and one by Markus (Posted Wed Nov 7, 2012 3:22 pm).
From these three it is clear that I put the matter of the invention date - invented in 2010 but a major change (in terms of gameplay) in december 2011 - before the jury.
Further down you can see the reason why I detracted the game (Posted Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:14 am). Next MS entered it again against my wishes, so I mailed Markus to take it out. He suggested to give the invention date as a reason "um keinen Anlass für weitere Diskussionen zu bieten" (to give no cause for further discussions).
Since this is an attempt at character smearing I will add Markus' initial remark:
Quote:"Ich fände es sehr schade, Symple aus dem Wettbewerb zu nehmen, da es ein interessantes Spiel zu sein scheint. Es tut mir leid, dass es wieder so unangemessene Kommentare gab."
"I found it a pity to take Symple out of the contest because it seems to be an interesting game. I regret that there have been such unappropriate comments." |
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Now this, obviously, will not end. We all know how "close" Marvin and Mark are. If I leave "they" will turn this thread into something like RGA. So I'll sit it out with some factual information now and then.
Such as this post, Luis' reasoning towards the best value for the penalty, in which he had to enlighten a totally confused MS about the nature of the penalty:
Quote:| Luis: "As far as I know, the suggested penalty parameter hasn't changed because of a lack of balance, but simply because higher penalty values provide for increased drama and more interesting strategic dilemmas." |
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It's a parameter that in the applet it can be set from 0-12. Changing it changes the balance between territory, the raw points, and connectivity. It does so, basically, by shifting the timing of the 'tension peak' of a game. It allows for the most interesting games if set within reasonable limits of Luis' calculated optimum, shifting the priorities within the game, without affecting balance.
The point is so basic that anyone who doesn't understand it cannot even have a clue to Symple. Mark obviously thought it to be some arbitrary number on which the game's balance would depend.
Quote:| Symple's balance is still a concern though. Why did Christian gradually change the parameter from at least 2 to at least 4 to at least 6? It has to be a balance issue. |
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Not even right on the facts, and clueless as to the meaning.
Now I'm going to sit it out. I'll keep you posted on the CodeCup 2013.
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| « Last Edit: Nov 21st, 2012, 6:10am by christianF » |
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MarvinSpellbinder
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1014 on: Nov 21st, 2012, 9:46am » |
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on Nov 21st, 2012, 4:45am, christianF wrote:
In [the contest comment section] you'll find one of "Russ" (Posted Wed Nov 7, 2012 2:28 pm), followed by one by me (Posted Wed Nov 7, 2012 3:00 pm) and one by Markus (Posted Wed Nov 7, 2012 3:22 pm).
From these three it is clear that I put the matter of the invention date - invented in 2010 but a major change (in terms of gameplay) in december 2011 - before the jury.
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When you entered Symple into the contest, Christian, there was no announcement of "Hey guys, I published Symple in 2010, but I made a tiny rule change in 2011." There was no remote reference to a discrepancy with Symple's publish date. It was only after Russ exposed Symple's criterion violation that you grudgingly admitted to it, making the case that Symple is so interesting that it warrants violation of the criteria.
You couldn't very well deny Symple's 2010 publish date since it's plainly cited in bgg. You had clearly made Markus uncomfortable with your Symple entry. "Christian, in general I don´t think it is a good idea to make exceptions from the criteria." He recommended that if the 2011 change was significant enough, you should change Symple's cited bgg publish date from 2010 to 2011, which you then proceeded to not do. Then it fell through the cracks.
This is your idea of integrity?
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1015 on: Nov 21st, 2012, 10:35am » |
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on Nov 21st, 2012, 9:46am, MarvinSpellbinder wrote:
When you entered Symple into the contest, Christian, there was no announcement of "Hey guys, I published Symple in 2010, but I made a tiny rule change in 2011." |
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Factual information - I saved the original entry at BGG ('thing' and 'person' are links to Symple, Benedikt and Luis).
Quote:[thing=106341][/thing] description for this entry:
I'd like to enter the game on behalf of [person=15917][/person] and me.
You can play at mindsports.nl.
Here's an archive of games played at mindsports.
Symple is the programming assignment for the 2013 CodeCup Challenge.
Here's an archive of games played in the CodeCup.
Symple was invented in 2010 but suffered from a Go-induced delusion for a year or so. The current game dates from December 2011. This deep and unintrusive bug was discovered after [person=47001][/person] questioned the pass rule. Here is the complete story. |
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| « Last Edit: Nov 21st, 2012, 10:49am by christianF » |
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MarvinSpellbinder
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1016 on: Nov 21st, 2012, 10:57am » |
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Ok, Christian. You handled it better than I gave you credit for. But Symple, with its bgg cited 2010 publish year was clearly ineligible for a bgg contest requiring a minimum publish year of 2011.
In any case, Symple is out and the contest is better for it.
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1017 on: Nov 21st, 2012, 2:00pm » |
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I lost my previous game of Mu_velox after a vicious tactical attack by Purple at move 18 that left me busy cleaning up the mess, losing tempo and, it being Mu, the game.
Another thing to keep an eye on in the current game.
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| « Last Edit: Nov 21st, 2012, 2:01pm by christianF » |
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1018 on: Nov 22nd, 2012, 5:14am » |
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I voted for Luis' Ayu in the Best combinatorial 2-player game award 2011-2012 at BGG. I must confess to a lack of knowledge about most other entries, merely having read the short summaries that come with them. But then, I haven't yet played a lot of Ayu either.
Under the link above you'll also find an example of a cooperative cycle, under Ayu rules, but not in an Ayu position because Ayu starts with 30 stones each and there's no capture. Cooperative cycles are no problem. Forced cycles may constitute a problem if (and only if) draws are a problem. Which may not be the case. Chess has forced cycles, and the rules deal with them - where's the problem?
So what do we have? A brilliant game that till now has shown that a cooperative cycle in an actual game position cannot be excluded yet. But neither has one been found. There may well be a proof that a forced cycle cannot occur in Ayu. But we haven't got it (I'm the most unlikely source for that matter). Till then I would say that the chance ranges from extremely unlikely to near impossible.
To be ahead of any possible problem that could be arising from cycles, Luis made any cycle a draw. The chance ranges, as far as I can see, from smaller than in Havannah to zero. A draw in Havannah is significant enough news to have its own thread. The system wasn't even prepared for it: a draw could not be offered and players were forced to fill the board, to alert the system to the end of the game. It was a bit of an event.
A draw in Ayu would be an event too, something that might happen once in one's lifetime, unless someone proves a forced cycle it is impossible. In that case there would be no draws possible. I would find that almost regrettable. I'm in fact very pleased with the tiny margin of draws Havannah has.
So if Nick Bentley says in the award thread:
Quote:| "My favorite of Luigi's as well, unless cycles turn out to be a problem." |
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Then I wonder how he envisions such a problem  .
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MarvinSpellbinder
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1019 on: Nov 22nd, 2012, 9:33am » |
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Remember in Jurassic Park when Jeff Goldblum says "Life will find a way."? Same thing with draws. Draws will find a way. No one has to "envision" them.
In Luis' case, he was far from "pleased" when he found out Ayu is draw susceptible.
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