Author |
Topic: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games (Read 522428 times) |
|
christianF
Forum Moderator
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #4019
Gender: 
Posts: 804
|
 |
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #990 on: Nov 18th, 2012, 11:15am » |
|
Benedikt Rosenau has applied the Symple mechanism to Hex and Y. It's a simple fit, no pun intended. Quote: It is a straightforward translation. Standard board for Hex, and the goal is to connect the two opposing edges of your color, just as in Hex.
On a move, a player may either 1. place a new group (i.e. a stone) of his color on the board or 2. grow any or all existing groups of his color by one stone. White plays first. Once and only once during the game, Black may grow all existing groups and place a new group, but only if White has not grown any groups so far.
Board size is up to you, try 11x11 or bigger. |
|
I like that, though "as long as neither has grown so far" would be better, because this leaves open the possibility of black growth, a white placement, followed by black growth + placement.
But the application is similar to column checkers: the principle can be applied to many checkers games, but there is only one game that is not the "columnification" of an existing game. You cannot unapply it from Emergo because Emergo is the quintessential implementation of column checkers. Take it out and there's nothing left.
Likewise, Symple is the quintessential implementation of territory and dynamic goal connection. The latter stands to 'static goal connection' like a flock of birds to a spider's web. The quintessential hybrid requires the Symple move protocol. Take it out and there's no game left.
Nevertheless the move protocol, and (essential!) the embedded balancing rule, can be applied to certain games. I considered Go, but decided Go's complexity would probably work against it. So I simplified the idea to Sygo. In Othello it doesn't work too well either, because of the obligation to capture and the ever changing configuration of groups. So I made Charybdis and never even played it yet. I left out the balancing rule because I don't feel it is necessary, given the tactical haywire.
Now it seems to work fine in Hex and Y. Of course it's no longer Hex and Y. These are new games, using a different move protocol and a different balancing rule. I feel they may be very interesting, strategically, and in any case very modern because the Symple move protocol leads to significantly shorter and faster games, at least in terms of the number of turns.
|
| « Last Edit: Nov 18th, 2012, 3:30pm by christianF » |
 IP Logged |
|
|
|
SpeedRazor
Forum Guru
Skepticism is the Immune System of Science
Gender:
Posts: 72
|
|
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #991 on: Nov 18th, 2012, 7:21pm » |
|
Wow, really interesting stuff, Christian! (Especially starting from the 12th.) I'm kind of just an abstract game observer - (and leave this website for months at a time) - but I'm always interested in your essays and following your links.
I dunno, but in my abstract game non-connoisseurial eye, I kinda think that Redstone and Ketchup (first iteration) were home-runs; as are many of the other games you mentioned: Symple comes to mind.
Yeah, I could take Mark Steere posting here again, but he goes too far sometimes. Calling the founder of the Arimaa website a son-of-a-b*tch or c*cksucker; well, you just can't do that...
Peace, Christian! Time to explore some of those links...
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
MarvinSpellbinder
Forum Full Member
Arimaa player #8258
Gender:
Posts: 17
|
|
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #992 on: Nov 18th, 2012, 7:27pm » |
|
11x11 Hex with pie is considered to be well balanced for most skill levels. Is 11x11 Symple Hex "perfectly balanced" as you claim for Symple? If not, why?
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
MarvinSpellbinder
Forum Full Member
Arimaa player #8258
Gender:
Posts: 17
|
|
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #993 on: Nov 18th, 2012, 8:34pm » |
|
In your discussion of Hex, you claim that Hex-19 is perfectly balanced while smaller sizes of Hex are not. Can it be inferred that, in your view, lots of games are perfectly balanced given sufficient board size, and that there is, after all, nothing special about Symple?
Game theory aside, and from the perspective of sheer playability, don't you think that Redstone is, over all, probably a better game than Symple?
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
christianF
Forum Moderator
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #4019
Gender:
Posts: 804
|
|
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #994 on: Nov 19th, 2012, 5:48am » |
|
on Nov 18th, 2012, 7:21pm, SpeedRazor wrote:Symple comes to mind.
...
Peace, Christian! Time to explore some of those links ... |
|
Thanks, links are all I've got for the moment, actually.
BEST COMBINATORIAL 2-PLAYER GAME OF 2011/2012 AWARD
I can't direct you to a specific post, but there's a large comments section at the bottom that is off topic but worth reading.
In it Benedikt suggests to ...Marvin to go to a better place for such a discussion and opened a thread in the Symple page called:
Applying the mechanism to other games
In it he argues that the Symple mechanism is a "mutator" a term coined by João Pedro Neto.
Not that I didn't know, but now that it's attracting some attention because it can be applied to a few other games or types of games, I'd like to point out that Symple is still unique in that it can't be unapplied from it.
|
| « Last Edit: Nov 19th, 2012, 6:52am by christianF » |
IP Logged |
|
|
|
MarvinSpellbinder
Forum Full Member
Arimaa player #8258
Gender:
Posts: 17
|
|
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #995 on: Nov 19th, 2012, 10:03am » |
|
[on Nov 19th, 2012, 5:48am, christianF wrote:
Benedikt suggests to ...Marvin to go to a better place for [a Symple] discussion and opened a thread in the [bgg] Symple page called.... |
|
What better place to discuss Symple than here in the primary Christian Freeling Games thread? Why must Benedikt speak for you in an obscure thread?
on Nov 19th, 2012, 5:48am, christianF wrote:
now that [Symple is] attracting some attention |
|
The only people discussing Symple are you, Benedikt, and me. You and Benedikt are co-designers, and I'm a detractor because of your Symple-the-holy-grail nonsense. This is your idea of "attracting attention"?
Redstone, unlike Symple, is attracting attention. Redstone, unlike Symple, is being discussed.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
SpeedRazor
Forum Guru
Skepticism is the Immune System of Science
Gender:
Posts: 72
|
|
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #996 on: Nov 19th, 2012, 5:16pm » |
|
Thnx for the links, Christian  I imagine Symple isn't in the running because it's too old? Darn, would've got my vote...
Well, I noticed that vain, ego-maniac, MS was being his usual obnoxious self in a couple of the posts, but because this isn't a popularity contest, I voted for Redstone. Of the games I know in the contest, it's my favorite. But wow! What competition! Many more than I suspected abstract - (er, combinatorial) - games from 2011 / 2012 look very good! This bodes well for the industry, I hope...
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
MarvinSpellbinder
Forum Full Member
Arimaa player #8258
Gender:
Posts: 17
|
|
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #997 on: Nov 19th, 2012, 7:16pm » |
|
SpeedRazor, I happen to know Mark Steere personally, and he extends his appreciation for your Redstone vote. Christian brazenly entered his obviously ineligible game, Symple, which was then summarily disqualified.
I don't have a problem with Symple, the game. My issue is Christian's relentless, aggressive campaign to promote it year after year. Symple the "great game". Symple the "perfectly balanced" game. Symple the "quintessential" game. Then there's the brow beating, the berating of everyone for not embracing Symple. I am tired of that.
The consensus seems to be that Symple is not a great game. I've never heard anyone other than Christian, in all the years he's been promoting it, call Symple a great game.
In the sandbox at Game Site X, some unprogrammed games are played relatively frequently, like Slither and Ketchup. I've never seen Symple being played there.
Christian, I hope you don't spend the rest of your days resenting a public who doesn't appreciate how "great" Symple is, but I fear you will. Don't be that guy. Don't be the grumpy old man. The public has the right to decide what it likes and what it doesn't. You can't force Symple on them.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
NickBentley
Forum Senior Member
Arimaa player #6704
Gender:
Posts: 44
|
|
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #998 on: Nov 19th, 2012, 11:43pm » |
|
Heh. "Marvin"
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
christianF
Forum Moderator
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #4019
Gender:
Posts: 804
|
|
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #999 on: Nov 20th, 2012, 7:05am » |
|
on Nov 19th, 2012, 7:16pm, MarvinSpellbinder wrote:| SpeedRazor, I happen to know Mark Steere personally. |
|
Marvin, we all understand how close you are  .
Actually, if one contemplates going mental over a game, etiquette suggests Chess. It's fascinating to have found a new game capable of doing the same. It adds to its uniqueness its significance. Only an idiot would go mental over an insignificant game.
Please notify Mark that I've answered his question about "perfect balance". As to my other claims, they've always been just one:
Quote:| Symple is a drawless, finite perfect information game for which an opening advantage for either player cannot be argued successfully. (symple rules) |
|
The best way to refute that would seem to successfully argue an opening advantage for either the first or the second player.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
christianF
Forum Moderator
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #4019
Gender:
Posts: 804
|
|
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1000 on: Nov 20th, 2012, 7:45am » |
|
on Nov 19th, 2012, 5:16pm, SpeedRazor wrote:| Thnx for the links, Christian I imagine Symple isn't in the running because it's too old? Darn, would've got my vote... |
|
I entered the game provisionally. I informed Markus Hagenauer that it was invented in October 2010 but that the introduction of compulsory placement had dramatically changed the game in December 2011, and that the decision was his. His decision was favorable. The removal of the game had different reasons and followed my request at Markus to do so. He then presented the 2010 issue as a reason to "give no cause to further discussion". Quote:| Wenn du aber darauf bestehst, dass ich das Spiel aus dem Wettbewerb lösche, dann werde ich das tun. Um keinen Anlass für weitere Diskussionen zu bieten, würde ich das dann damit begründen, dass das Spiel von 2010 ist, und somit zu alt um am Wettbewerb teilzunehmen. |
|
|
| « Last Edit: Nov 20th, 2012, 7:51am by christianF » |
IP Logged |
|
|
|
MarvinSpellbinder
Forum Full Member
Arimaa player #8258
Gender:
Posts: 17
|
|
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1001 on: Nov 20th, 2012, 9:54am » |
|
on Nov 20th, 2012, 7:45am, christianF wrote:
I entered [Symple] provisionally. I informed Markus Hagenauer that it was invented in October 2010 but that the introduction of compulsory placement had dramatically changed the game in December 2011, and that the decision was his. His decision was favorable.
|
|
Not exactly, Christian. Mark Steere made an innocuous joke about Symple, and you freaked out and withdrew Symple from the contest. You said it yourself. "Only an idiot would go mental over an insignificant game." Mark Steere re-entered Symple, and then Markus Hagenauer wrote exactly this:
>
> I can´t understand this misplaced discussion about Symple.
>
> It does not fit the criterias of this contest (published 2011 or 2012)
> and so I remove it again.
Pretty explicit.
Symple was published in 2010. Tweaking the pass rule, regardless of how it "dramatically changed the game" doesn't change that fact, Christian. You'd about have to be "mental", or at least extremely desperate, to think that Symple was eligible for this contest.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
christianF
Forum Moderator
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #4019
Gender:
Posts: 804
|
|
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1002 on: Nov 20th, 2012, 10:03am » |
|
on Nov 20th, 2012, 9:54am, MarvinSpellbinder wrote:>I can´t understand this misplaced discussion about Symple. It does not fit the criterias of this contest (published 2011 or 2012) and so I remove it again.
Pretty explicit. |
|
Yes, the reason to put it that way is explained in the quote. Test your German.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
MarvinSpellbinder
Forum Full Member
Arimaa player #8258
Gender:
Posts: 17
|
|
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1003 on: Nov 20th, 2012, 11:02am » |
|
on Nov 20th, 2012, 10:03am, christianF wrote:
Hand waving in a foreign language. Just when I thought you couldn't get any more deceptive.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
MarvinSpellbinder
Forum Full Member
Arimaa player #8258
Gender:
Posts: 17
|
|
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #1004 on: Nov 20th, 2012, 12:37pm » |
|
Markus wrote:
I would then explain the fact that the game is from 2010, and therefore too old to participate in the competition.
Exactly. Knowing that fact, why would Markus allow Symple in the first place?
The contest criterion is clear:
- published in 2011 or 2012
A tweak doesn't constitute a new publish date. If Symple had won (lol), there would have been outrage at both Markus and you. Hand waving Europeans. You only fool yourselves.
The integrity of the contest was restored, however reluctantly, with the disqualification of the offensive, ineligible game. It's still a stupid contest though since it includes late breaking editions of hugely popular Eurogames. I'd withdraw Redstone if I really gave a crap about a bgg contest.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
|
Home
Help
Search
Members
Login
Register
Notify of replies
Send Topic
Print