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Topic: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games (Read 522364 times) |
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #705 on: Oct 7th, 2011, 12:52pm » |
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on Oct 7th, 2011, 11:14am, christianF wrote:
I considered it more carefully and saw [Corey Clark's] solution to the diagonal cross problem.... Brilliant indeed in its simplicity!
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I like Slither too. Good architecture.
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #706 on: Oct 7th, 2011, 1:12pm » |
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My own solution to the diagonal cross problem is the most elegant. In Crossway, players are simply precluded from crossing the same point.
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qswanger
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #707 on: Oct 7th, 2011, 1:25pm » |
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Hi Mark, I remember reading the rules of Crossway quite some time ago, but I have not had the opportunity to play it yet. Whether or not it is "the most elegant" solution to the diagonal cross problem, I'm not so sure. To my mind (which likes things to be simple) I think only having to look at and worry about the positioning of my own stones when determining if a move is legal or not is simpler than having to look at both mine and my opponents stones to see if the combination of the two would preclude a placement. I don't know if simple is the same thing as elegant and I'm definitely not saying (and can't say at the moment) whether one game is better than the other.
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #708 on: Oct 7th, 2011, 1:52pm » |
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on Oct 7th, 2011, 1:25pm, qswanger wrote:
I don't know if simple is the same thing as elegant |
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It isn't, but in the context of solving a long standing problem, simple goes a long way toward elegant. No solution could be simpler than Crossway.
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qswanger
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #709 on: Oct 7th, 2011, 3:20pm » |
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I wonder if there is an objective definition of "simple", or whether at least a component of the definition of "simple" is subjective. To my mind saying that there can be no diagonal only connections between any pair of stones in Slither is simpler than saying there can never be any crosscuts in Crossway because the condition you check for to determine the legality of your move in Slither involves only checking one's own stones, not also that of your opponent's as in Crossway. True there is the optional 1-space slide move before you make your mandatory stone placement, which does add an extra rule, but with the addition of this extra rule I am not sure that it makes for a less elegant solution. I'll make a guess and say that sometimes two simple rules in one game can add up to be simpler overall than a single rule in another game if that single rule requires condition checking that is less intuitive than either of the other two in the other game. Know what I mean? What's intuitive for one person maybe is not so much for someone else. So perhaps there is no clear, uniform, objective definition of "simple". I will just have to try Crossway to know for sure for me, but as of right now checking the state of one's own color stones is twice as easy/simple as checking the state of two players' stones.
I want to say that my intent is not to inflame anyone here.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 7th, 2011, 3:23pm by qswanger » |
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #710 on: Oct 7th, 2011, 4:03pm » |
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on Oct 7th, 2011, 3:20pm, qswanger wrote:
True there is the optional 1-space slide move |
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lol, Ya' don't say. That's twice rules of Crossway. Crossway is simpler than Slither, your semantic argument notwithstanding. Crossway has a simpler rule set, no matter how you word it.
on Oct 7th, 2011, 3:20pm, qswanger wrote:
I am not sure that [Slither] makes for a less elegant solution. |
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I am. As a solution to the so called diagonal cross problem, a simple solution is an elegant solution. Crossway is about as simple as a game can be, exceeded in simplicity only by the likes of Hex. Not Slither.
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qswanger
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #711 on: Oct 7th, 2011, 6:12pm » |
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Well, that settles that. I'm still not any closer to understanding what "simple" means.  I would love to hear your definition.
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #712 on: Oct 7th, 2011, 6:58pm » |
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on Oct 7th, 2011, 6:12pm, qswanger wrote:
I would love to hear your definition [of simple]. |
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Not complicated, as with extra rules.
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #713 on: Oct 8th, 2011, 5:22am » |
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on Oct 7th, 2011, 3:20pm, qswanger wrote:| True there is the optional 1-space slide move before you make your mandatory stone placement, which does add an extra rule, but with the addition of this extra rule I am not sure that it makes for a less elegant solution. I'll make a guess and say that sometimes two simple rules in one game can add up to be simpler overall than a single rule in another game if that single rule requires condition checking that is less intuitive than either of the other two in the other game. Know what I mean? |
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I do 
For one you don't consider a slide and next go looking for a place to put your stone. It's combinations of the two you consider, within the strategic framework of any particular game.
Corey's find is an extremely lucky merger that he doubtlessly induced by careful reflection on a number of mechanisms suited for the general theme. The theme isn't all that exceptional, but when this particular combination appeared in his mind, he must have realized that it gave rise to much more than just the solution to the cross cut problem. That must have been an enlightning moment!
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| « Last Edit: Oct 8th, 2011, 8:35am by christianF » |
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #714 on: Oct 10th, 2011, 7:10pm » |
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I happened to notice the Havannah announcement on Ludoteka, Christian. Congrats That's an awesome site, albeit in Spanish, mainly. If I had a game there, I'd probably learn Spanish. Se habla?
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #715 on: Oct 11th, 2011, 1:34pm » |
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on Oct 10th, 2011, 7:10pm, MarkSteere wrote:
Ludoteka just got more awesome. Cephalopod is now played there. I flew through my first couple of games. Move updates are lightning fast. The wait for opponents is mere seconds.
The years pass and you see how your games fare in the world. Cephalopod is rock solid - a favorite of players, game site programmers, and AI programmers.
Tiempo para aprender español 
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #716 on: Oct 11th, 2011, 6:21pm » |
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on Oct 8th, 2011, 5:22am, christianF wrote:
Corey's find is an extremely lucky merger that he doubtlessly induced by careful reflection on a number of mechanisms suited for the general theme. |
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Certainly luck played a role, but it takes more than a song and a prayer. It takes talent. Corey tossed the playbook out the window and invented an original connection game.
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #717 on: Oct 13th, 2011, 8:13pm » |
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Cephalopod is played almost continuously at Ludoteka, usually in a continuous series of lightning fast rounds. Like popcorn popping. I watched two players play Cephalopod non-stop for three hours while I practiced my saxophone. It was phenomenal and beautiful. Here was this awkwardly named, awkward game I invented five years ago come to life in the form of giant popping dice across the room on a laptop screen. This is where real real time makes a difference. Of course, for the magic to happen, you need a decent Internet connection. But if you live in 2011 and have a job, this shouldn't be an obstacle.
There are usually only one or two Cephalopod boards going at once at this stage. Cephalopod's rise to prominence at Ludoteka will be an awesome spectacle. The opening page clearly shows how many people are currently playing each game. It's simply a matter of time. Cephalopod is addictive in the right setting. The real real time, huge player pool at Ludoteka is the right setting.
It should be noted that most of the players learn by playing. It should also be noted that that's ok. They're up on speed and down on boring rule sheets. But Cephalopod is simple enough that, with a little guidance, you can just about figure it out. In a year there will be a handful of players who can annihilate you while investing no time in their moves. In two years there will be more.
Cephalopod is a special game. That's undeniable. But it needs the right setting, as I said. It's funny the power the game site programmers have. The guardians of the gate. We need them but they need us too. What would they have without designers? Backgammon. Italian [bleeping] Checkers. Tie me down.
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #718 on: Oct 14th, 2011, 7:40pm » |
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I thought I saw Havannah being played at Ludoteka, but it turned out to be Havanian Tute, lol What are the odds?
Not to gloat, but I just spent 19 years being snubbed, condescended to, dismissed, ignored, and denigrated - most recently by a certain person. My architecture-centric design approach is routinely derided.
Enter Cephalopod, marvel of modern game architecture, pitched into a death arena to fend for itself. The impassioned court of public opinion - exactly what said certain person has always pined for. Imagine my pride of craftsmanship, watching Cephalopod hit the ground kicking butt and taking names.
An event is unfolding of utmost significance - maybe not to said certain person, but to me. The skill levels in Cephalopod are advancing much more rapidly at Ludoteka than I had anticipated. It'll be weeks, not years, before a cadre of lightning fast, invincible (except to each other) players forms.
Architecture is real.
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #719 on: Oct 16th, 2011, 11:31am » |
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The epic battle between architecture and intuition rages on at Ludoteka. In a historic turning point, Cephalopod buried Havannnah up to its neck in a cornfield and ran over it with a flail shredder. Now Cephalopod is rigging a wire from the tractor to the Havannah carcass to jerk it out of the earth. Stay tuned.....
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