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Topic: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games (Read 522363 times) |
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #735 on: Nov 26th, 2011, 10:40am » |
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Ludoteka daily turnout for November 25, 2011:
Cephalopod - 48
Havannah - 17
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omar
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #736 on: Nov 26th, 2011, 5:10pm » |
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on Nov 17th, 2011, 5:21am, christianF wrote:
I guess the Arimaa bot developers don't like to travel 
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Arimabuff
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #737 on: Nov 27th, 2011, 4:40am » |
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on Nov 26th, 2011, 5:10pm, omar wrote:
I guess the Arimaa bot developers don't like to travel
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I am guessing neither do their wallets...
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #738 on: Nov 27th, 2011, 5:40am » |
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on Nov 27th, 2011, 4:40am, Arimabuff wrote:
I am guessing neither do their wallets... |
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There's a point. Physical presence should not be necessary in this day and age, and more in particular not for next year's match. Good connections and transparent procedures will be enough to keep everyone happily at home or wherever.
Meanwhile Marcin Ciura has created a Google+ Havannah page. If you have a G+ account, you can add it to your circles.
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #739 on: Nov 28th, 2011, 7:31am » |
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on Oct 7th, 2011, 3:20pm, qswanger wrote:| What's intuitive for one person maybe is not so much for someone else. So perhaps there is no clear, uniform, objective definition of "simple". I will just have to try Crossway to know for sure for me, but as of right now checking the state of one's own color stones is twice as easy/simple as checking the state of two players' stones. |
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Maybe this helps.
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #740 on: Nov 28th, 2011, 8:50am » |
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on Nov 28th, 2011, 7:31am, christianF wrote:
Why all the excitement about Crossway? I'm too old for this.
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #741 on: Dec 5th, 2011, 7:02am » |
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We've rearranged mindsports somewhat, in particular the ArenA and the Pit. We've removed superfluous games like Hexbushka and Hexdameo (actually Hexdame is kind of superfluous too, considering that Draughts players are square thinkers). We've kept International, Anglo-American and Russian, but omitted the likes of Spanish, Italian, German, Thai and a couple of others. They are still covered in On the Evolution of Draughts Variants, but without applets.
So we're trimming down a bit, giving priority to completing the applets for the current games. Ed has also turned his attention to the app world, because PC's seem to go the way of the dodo, eventually.
And so will I, so I've decided to call it a day as far as inventing games goes - yes, again, I'm determined  .
I'm glad the 'art' or 'science' of inventing abstract games, however small its niche in the grander scheme of things, is very much alive. I'll follow it with the utmost interest, in particular the approach of Luis Bolaños Mures who seems to have a knack for simple 'organic mechanisms' of a highly original nature, and I hope to contribute something less than silly, now and again.
As far as the quest for a game that is finite, drawless and perfectly balanced, Symple complies, without being the result the that particular quest (rather of Benedikt Rosenau's quest for the 'quintessential group penalty game'). Its balancing system is the most sophisticated in the realm of abstract games yet, but being embedded in a particular move protocol, it is not as widely applicable as a pie. The move protocol itself however is not game specific, as Sygo and Charybdis show, but it has a natural affinity with the 'territorial'. Consider it to be in the public domain now.
I've argued before that being finite, drawless and balanced is neither necessary nor sufficient to make a great game. Symple is significant in a game theoretical sense. It has a very simple structure without capture, an innovative move protocol, a high speed, a character that varies with its group penalty and an unreal branch density. It would seem and ideal touchstone for the programming community. It offers deep strategy with no particular preference for drama, yet is not devoid of it. Connecting two groups in a penalty-10 game makes a 10-point difference. Winning or losing them might be considered dramatic.
But I prefer Sygo because it features capture and all the drama associated with it. Moreover I like its ever so small marging for draws (resulting from the possibility of 'seki'). Generally speaking I have a slight preference for games that can end in a draw if they're not making a habit of it. I'm not sure where the obsession with decisiveness that's in the air originates. Havannah provides a clear example of how a drawmargin may actually enhance a game.
I'd warn against excessive cyclophobia too .
cheers,
christian
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| « Last Edit: Dec 5th, 2011, 7:48am by christianF » |
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #742 on: Dec 5th, 2011, 6:57pm » |
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on Dec 5th, 2011, 7:02am, christianF wrote:
[Symple's] balancing system is the most sophisticated in the realm of abstract games yet, |
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This is sad.
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #743 on: Dec 5th, 2011, 8:20pm » |
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on Dec 5th, 2011, 7:02am, christianF wrote:
As far as the quest for a game that is finite, drawless and perfectly balanced, Symple complies, |
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Dog[?]
a. ma
b. doo
c. all of the above
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #744 on: Dec 5th, 2011, 9:17pm » |
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Evidence, Christian. That's all I ask. That's all anybody asks.
No more stale dogma. No more links to stale dogma.
Example first player win rates from Game Site X:
Tanbo - 50.00%
Hex Oust - 51.17%
Square Oust - 49.62%
As you can see, Christian, I'm no stranger to balanced games.
Tanbo's TOA is more than a coincidence. Data from megasite ItsYourTurn also demonstrates a Tanbo TOA consistent with zero percent.
You'll never find a game more balanced than Tanbo, and guess what. No balancing mechanism required. Just solid architecture. That's all it takes, Christian.
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #745 on: Dec 11th, 2011, 2:20pm » |
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Dieter Stein's Volo
Barring Chess variants I've always supported what is loosely called 'organic' mechanisms. Where does the 'organic' come from? It may be from asking the right question after finding a promising mechanism: "what does it want?".
I was reminded of this recently by the implementation of Dieter Stein's game Volo at BoardSpace.
Dieter took the basic rules for flying in a flock of birds (don't try unless you're a bird):
* Move in the same direction as your neighbor
* Remain close to your neighbors
* Avoid collisions with your neighbors
and translated them to a hexgrid. The "what does it want" question is answered almost implicitly: unite.
Admittedly the sky is a freer board than a hexgrid, so what remained was still something of a puzzle, but I think Dieter did an excellent job. Adding birds or having them fly following simple rules feels natural enough, and tactics follow suit. There's capture, yes, but it is double edged as in LOA, that is, you can capture an opponent into victory. Of course nobody would be that stupid, but that's precisely what makes it part of tactical considerations.
Strategy is too evasive a subject for me yet, but Dieter gives a 9- stone example that is decisive:
Orange to move and win in 5 half-moves.
This suggests there's some important strategic thinking required early on, and it also suggests a good global/local interrelation.
Volo appears to be soft finite, that is, two dedicated opponent's with a draw as their common goal, could probably find ways to proceed forever.
So could they in Go, Chess, Draughts, Shogi ... in fact hard finite games like Othello and Hex are at best peripheral, so Volo is in the best of company.
It can also end in a draw, in modesty it would seem. I dare say I like that.
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| « Last Edit: Dec 11th, 2011, 3:45pm by christianF » |
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #746 on: Dec 11th, 2011, 8:10pm » |
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on Dec 11th, 2011, 2:20pm, christianF wrote:
hard finite games like Othello and Hex are at best peripheral, |
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How many times have we seen designers falsely represent their infinite games as finite (Christian)? But never the other way around.
Must be the allure of the "periphery"
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SpeedRazor
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #747 on: Dec 12th, 2011, 8:30pm » |
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Dude, what is your friggin' problem?! Leave Christian alone. It's like your his groupie, or stalker, or something. Did Christian not bang you correctly at some gaming convention after-show?
Did you [like] invent a game or something, and now are jealous? Then make your own website! You're putting the trash in Ameri-trash. Omar, rightly so, gave Christian a nice place to leave his ideas, writings, inventions, and musings, a place (besides his own cool website ) to reside for posterity. I'm grateful for this. But I'm starting to get sick of coming here because of your sick obsession.
Does even ONE person like to see this trolls' jealous, banal, mundane tirades posted only seconds after Christian posts something very nice - (like above) - ? If so, please respond here now...
Omar, you've asked him to leave this website ever-so-nicely. It's now time to ban his IP address. Sorry that I may have been a little crass...
~ Zephyr ~
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froody
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #748 on: Dec 12th, 2011, 9:07pm » |
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on Dec 12th, 2011, 8:30pm, SpeedRazor wrote:Dude, what is your friggin' problem?! Leave Christian alone. It's like your his groupie, or stalker, or something. Did Christian not bang you correctly at some gaming convention after-show?
Did you [like] invent a game or something, and now are jealous? Then make your own website! You're putting the trash in Ameri-trash. Omar, rightly so, gave Christian a nice place to leave his ideas, writings, inventions, and musings, a place (besides his own cool website ) to reside for posterity. I'm grateful for this. But I'm starting to get sick of coming here because of your sick obsession.
Does even ONE person like to see this trolls' jealous, banal, mundane tirades posted only seconds after Christian posts something very nice - (like above) - ? If so, please respond here now...
Omar, you've asked him to leave this website ever-so-nicely. It's now time to ban his IP address. Sorry that I may have been a little crass...
~ Zephyr ~
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I like trolls. I haven't caught up on this thread yet, but I like all words and ideas. I hate people that try to censor words and ideas. I will comment further when I find out exactly what's going on and what kind of troll this is.
On further inspection this looks like a very high quality troll. *hat tip*
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| « Last Edit: Dec 12th, 2011, 9:14pm by froody » |
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froody
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #749 on: Dec 12th, 2011, 9:15pm » |
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Why did Omar ask him to leave? Are you afraid of his words and ideas or has he done something immoral?
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“Arimaa holds its master in its own bonds, shackling the mind and brain so that the inner freedom of the very strongest must suffer”
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