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UruramTururam
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Re: Bitcoin digital currency
« Reply #60 on: May 30th, 2011, 2:10am »
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@ Fritzliein:  
 
As long as other internet search engines are allowed to exist, Google is not a monopolist. And if it is choosen freely  by most consumers it may set higher prices... Such a price is not a monopolistic price but a fair market price for the services they offer.
 
@ 722caasi:
 
Nope, it's a proven economic law.  
Your examples are invalid:
 
* Natural advantage-ownership of critical resources
 
Worldwide? Not likely. And even so if such a company tries to set its price too high a replacement resource would emerge soon. Moreover companies controlling too much are harder to manage effectively thus not so stable. And - creating large companies is often encouraged by the government - if it demands too much bureaucracy to be done for a unit of work large companies are more effective there, but it is the fault of the overcomplicated law (thus the authorities), not the market.
 
* Economies of scale-Large companies do the job better, so small companies don't start
 
If they do the job better - what's the issue? They can ask more for their job. And maybe it's not a productive job but a bureaucratic one? If so - see above.
 
* Collusion-Every incoming business is bought by/colludes with an existing one, because of higher profits
 
See the first two issues.
 
* Government subsidies  
 
Oh - but this is straightly a government-created monopoly! It can exist as long as the government continues to support it.  
 
 
All in all - fighting monopolies governments fight the threat created by them own.
 
*
 
Of course I understand it's hard to switch from the false Keynes economic theories that are invalid theoretically and bankrupted several times in practice to the correct ones that brought wealth to nations - as the Keynesian ones are promoted by media (and backed by the governments!)... Nevertheless - end of topic from my part. It takes me too much time to answer each question individually while the answers are written in the books I've given above. I'm not an economy teacher. Wink  
 
Beside the authors I've written before (von Mises, Rothbard, Hayek) I'd also recommend Adam Smith and Milton Friedman.    
 
In fact we are a lot offtopic now, it should be a talk about bitcoins.  Smiley
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Isaac Grosof
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Re: Bitcoin digital currency
« Reply #61 on: May 30th, 2011, 3:13am »
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on May 30th, 2011, 2:10am, UruramTururam wrote:

* Natural advantage-ownership of critical resources
 
Worldwide? Not likely. And even so if such a company tries to set its price too high a replacement resource would emerge soon. Moreover companies controlling too much are harder to manage effectively thus not so stable. And - creating large companies is often encouraged by the government - if it demands too much bureaucracy to be done for a unit of work large companies are more effective there, but it is the fault of the overcomplicated law (thus the authorities), not the market.

Examples of worldwide control of natural resources:
New inventions-May not be replaceable
Situations where a replacement good/secondary source does not exist at the necessary price, so all other sources are too expensive.
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* Collusion-Every incoming business is bought by/colludes with an existing one, because of higher profits  
 
See the first two issues.

What? They first two issues do not apply when all competitors are voluntarily colluding.
 
In addition, what about cases where a lower cost is possible, but start up costs prevent a second competitor from being practical?
 
I don't think it is at all "proven" that all monopolies come from governments.
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Re: Bitcoin digital currency
« Reply #62 on: May 30th, 2011, 12:26pm »
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on May 28th, 2011, 10:55pm, Fritzlein wrote:
May I then say that the GPL is young?

 
If you like. Smiley I'm having a hard time calling something related to computers and technology that is over 20 years old, young though. But yes if you look at software licensing and source code availability, the idea of copyleft licensing is certainly the late comer.
 
Quote:
And if the GPL wasn't inspired by the hijacking of an earlier generation of free software, what is your theory on why the GPL came into existence and gained a significant measure of popularity?

 
From what I know, the GPL was a reaction to the general rise of proprietary (closed source) software through the late '70s and '80s. I don't know of any case where it was open source being hijacked that motivated RMS. RMS feels quite strongly that any software that does not provide source code and allow that code to be modified and redistributed is unethical.
 
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You seem not to have a very high opinion of the GPL; if that is true, would you be willing to explain directly why that is?

 
If I contribute code to a project I want to be able to take that project and use it in any way I would like, including possibly as part of a proprietary project of my own. I have yet to release any closed source software, but the restriction that I couldn't if I wanted to is enough to turn me away from GPL licensed projects. It is also what motivates me to release my stuff under a BSD, MIT or other non-copyleft license. I don't want to put a developer that picks it up under any restriction either.
 
GPL advocates will often emphasize that they are for free software (free as in freedom not free as in beer) and that any other licensing is less free. My gut reaction is that this is rather disingenuous. Although I'm sure this is because I prefer the freedom of the developer to do as they wish above the freedom of the code to be open, whereas they value it in the opposite order.
 
Quote:
Thanks for the information.  I wonder how personal preference (or ideology) with respect to software licensing arises, and what else it is related to.

 
Hopefully the above gives some glimpse into it.
 
The above are certainly just my own views and opinions in an area that many developers have very strong feelings. In order to try and keep from a full blown flame war I will try and refrain from responding should someone else post their own opinions.
 
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Re: Bitcoin digital currency
« Reply #63 on: May 30th, 2011, 1:43pm »
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Thanks for explaining, Janzert.  I won't take up a defense of the GPL or express a contrary opinion, as I don't feel very strongly about it, and don't know all that much about it.  I don't see anything wrong with there being an ecosystem of lots of different software licenses.  I just sensed that your earlier responses correcting me were motivated by some strong opinions that you weren't expressing, so I didn't want to simply keep talking about side issues without talking about the elephant in the room.  If my perception was correct, then let me apologize for highlighting copyleft while ignoring other kinds of free software.  I can see how that would touch a nerve if there are ongoing holy wars with people shouting "my software is more free than your software".  If, on the other hand, my perception was incorrect, then I apologize for missing the point myself.
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Re: Bitcoin digital currency
« Reply #64 on: May 30th, 2011, 5:57pm »
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on May 30th, 2011, 2:10am, UruramTururam wrote:

As long as other internet search engines are allowed to exist, Google is not a monopolist. And if it is choosen freely  by most consumers it may set higher prices... Such a price is not a monopolistic price but a fair market price for the services they offer.

 
I think different people might be working off of a different definition of what a monopoly or a monopoly price is, or what a fair market price is.
 
If I recall correctly, in the simplest classical view, the fair market price P occurs when the price equals the marginal cost of production (including opportunity costs). In this classical view, any higher price P_2 > P is not optimal because there will be people in society who value the product between P and P_2. The cost to the producer is only P and these people would have been willing to pay more than P, benefiting both themselves and the producer, yet are unwilling to pay P_2.
 
The Microsoft-Google scenario that Fritz presented might be an example. If Microsoft dropped out and Google raised its advertising prices 50%, that is precisely a monopoly situation. The cost of production (providing the internet search) has not increased and remains low, but the price is now much higher. According to the classical view above, the advertisers who no longer want to pay the higher price will switch to imperfect alternatives and experience a loss in utility not completely compensated by anything else.
 
This holds even if there are substitutes, if those substitutes are imperfect. Since users prefer Google over things like Bing, "advertising on Google" is a unique product with no perfect alternatives. (note that it's not the users who are buying this product, it's the advertisers!)
 
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Re: Bitcoin digital currency
« Reply #65 on: Jun 1st, 2011, 3:13am »
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OK what do you say to this:
 
I predict that one of the uses for Bitcoins will be as an intermediary currency for banking transactions as a secure replacement for hawala.
« Last Edit: Jun 1st, 2011, 3:14am by megajester » IP Logged

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Re: Bitcoin digital currency
« Reply #66 on: Jun 2nd, 2011, 2:33am »
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on May 29th, 2011, 7:13pm, Fritzlein wrote:
 It is only a matter of time before Microsoft decides Bing is not winning and decides to stop losing money on it.

Not really. Bing is a notorious plagiarist; it will not die.
http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2011/02/google-catches-bing-copyin g-microsoft-says-so-what.ars
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UruramTururam
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Re: Bitcoin digital currency
« Reply #67 on: Jun 2nd, 2011, 9:12am »
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on May 27th, 2011, 11:39am, Fritzlein wrote:

 
I hope you both strike it rich!  Getting in on a bubble can be very profitable if you get out again at the right time.  Smiley

 
The bubble inflates well, it's 1BTC>10USD now. Well if a "critical density" of interest is reached than $50 is not impossible. The amount of BTC entering a the market daily  is more or less constant, while the demand while a bubble is inflating grows exponentially. The growth started from $6 and for a world-wide bubble a 3-4 fold growth is expectable. Now $6*2^3.5=$68. I plan to quit at 50.  Wink
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Re: Bitcoin digital currency
« Reply #68 on: Jun 2nd, 2011, 12:11pm »
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on Jun 2nd, 2011, 9:12am, UruramTururam wrote:
The bubble inflates well, it's 1BTC>10USD now.

If the sovereign debt of Greece is restructured (or "reprofiled", or any other name for default), I will be happy.  The only alternative to default is to transfer the debt from the private sector to the public sector and delay the default, but ultimately insure that when default comes, it will be taxpayers and not banks who bear the burden.  Yet if the Greek default I am hoping for happens soon, the value of BitCoins will probably soar, as people trust state-issued currencies less and less, and look for alternatives, however improbable.  Let the euro show signs of falling apart, and BitCoins could reach your target $50 before year end.  Smiley
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Re: Bitcoin digital currency
« Reply #69 on: Jun 2nd, 2011, 3:46pm »
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on Jun 2nd, 2011, 12:11pm, Fritzlein wrote:
Yet if the Greek default I am hoping for happens soon, the value of BitCoins will probably soar, as people trust state-issued currencies less and less, and look for alternatives, however improbable.  Let the euro show signs of falling apart, and BitCoins could reach your target $50 before year end.  Smiley

In such a case that a large number of people and a few big companies tried to put a part of their money into BTC the price would skyrocket and end well above $50. Let's say for example that 1 billion USD is to be invested in bitcoins. In the circumstances in consideration it is quite a reasonable amount. With about 7 millions BTC in existence that alone would push the price to at least $150 not counting current owners' interests and speculations.  
 
I doubt in such a scenario, but everything may happened there and it could be fun to watch.
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Re: Bitcoin digital currency
« Reply #70 on: Jun 3rd, 2011, 7:16pm »
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I just bought myself £30 worth on #bitcoin-otc. Britcoin was trading at £12.50 ($20) at the time, so I didn't get the price I could have done had I been trading in dollars, but hey.
 
I know market traders talk about there being a "rush", well I can see what they mean! Because you're not just walking up to a counter and buying it, you're negotiating the price and the method of payment. And then there's the "moment of truth" when you find out if the person really is as trustworthy as you thought...
 
EDIT: One thing I will say is that if you don't have a dollar account it is extremely difficult to buy Bitcoins. Paypal shut down the only official Paypal vendor, so since then your options are limited:
 
1. Mt. Gox etc. (Which involves buying some sort of e-currency to buy Liberty Reserves to buy Mt. Gox credits to trade Bitcoins, and signing up to every single website along the way)
 
2. Jumping through the equally ridiculous hoop of getting an avatar in Second Life so you can buy Linden Dollars so you can buy Bitcoins on VirWoX.
 
3. The trading-floor-slash-shark-pit which is #bitcoin-otc. Edit: Bitcoinmarket.com looks like a safer version of the same thing, although they say they've run up their quota with gmail for signups.
 
How did you do it Ururam?
« Last Edit: Jun 3rd, 2011, 8:10pm by megajester » IP Logged

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Re: Bitcoin digital currency
« Reply #71 on: Jun 4th, 2011, 12:19am »
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on Jun 3rd, 2011, 7:16pm, megajester wrote:
EDIT: One thing I will say is that if you don't have a dollar account it is extremely difficult to buy Bitcoins. Paypal shut down the only official Paypal vendor, so since then your options are limited:

Is PayPal hostile to BitCoins, or was the vendor shut down for other reasons?
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Re: Bitcoin digital currency
« Reply #72 on: Jun 4th, 2011, 1:32am »
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on Jun 4th, 2011, 12:19am, Fritzlein wrote:

Is PayPal hostile to BitCoins, or was the vendor shut down for other reasons?

 
PayPal counts buying and selling BTC as "currency exchange" which is not allowed according to their regulations.
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Re: Bitcoin digital currency
« Reply #73 on: Jun 4th, 2011, 1:35am »
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on Jun 3rd, 2011, 7:16pm, megajester wrote:

EDIT: One thing I will say is that if you don't have a dollar account it is extremely difficult to buy Bitcoins. Paypal shut down the only official Paypal vendor, so since then your options are limited
 
How did you do it Ururam?

 
I used Bitmarket: https://bitmarket.eu/
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Re: Bitcoin digital currency
« Reply #74 on: Jun 4th, 2011, 2:57am »
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on Jun 4th, 2011, 12:19am, Fritzlein wrote:

Is PayPal hostile to BitCoins, or was the vendor shut down for other reasons?

Well, here is the explanation of the founder originally posted on the bitcoin.org forum. You make your own judgement Smiley
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